D&D 5E skill failure: where is it discussed?

[Gilladian]

Yesterday, while running a game, this situation arose:

A locked, magically trapped (glyph of warding) chest. Thief uses perception to examine the chest, to see if it is trapped. He fails his check. Does the magical trap go off? If it was a nonmagical trap, would it go off? The magical trap can only be removed by a successful Arcana check, correct? So the trap shouldn't go off just from the perception check failure, because then you'd never get to the Arcana check, right? Or do you only get the chance to make the Arcana check IF you successfully notice something with perception?

And if the thief is disarming a non-magical trap with thieves' tools, is EVERY failure to disarm enough to set off the trap? Or is there some middle ground where "you don't disarm it, but you don't trigger it either"? HELP! My players and I are all getting very frustrated with the 5e skill system, and I'm hoping it is just a matter of me overlooking the correct method for dealing with failure.

 

[Fildrigar]

Yesterday, while running a game, this situation arose:

A locked, magically trapped (glyph of warding) chest. Thief uses perception to examine the chest, to see if it is trapped. He fails his check. Does the magical trap go off? If it was a nonmagical trap, would it go off? The magical trap can only be removed by a successful Arcana check, correct? So the trap shouldn't go off just from the perception check failure, because then you'd never get to the Arcana check, right? Or do you only get the chance to make the Arcana check IF you successfully notice something with perception?

And if the thief is disarming a non-magical trap with thieves' tools, is EVERY failure to disarm enough to set off the trap? Or is there some middle ground where "you don't disarm it, but you don't trigger it either"? HELP! My players and I are all getting very frustrated with the 5e skill system, and I'm hoping it is just a matter of me overlooking the correct method for dealing with failure.

Are you the DM? Excellent, tell them what happens. MAKE the DECISION.

 

[Paraxis]

To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success—the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it’s a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM.

That is the answer. It might not be the greatest answer(or is it?), but skill success and failure is up to the DM.

You can set up a magically locked/trapped/warded chest anyway you want to.

Warded Chest
Notice DC 15
Disable DC 20, a successful arcana roll can be used to grant advantage on disarming the trap
Failure with a result of 15 or higher gives enough of a warning to provide advantage on the save vs damage.
Trap: 5d8 energy (acid) damage in a 20' burst, this spell is set to damage the contents destroying them if it goes off

All of the above is correct, because there are no rules. Just build the traps and stuff before the session and think about how the players will interact with them, what do you want to see happen?

 

[Shiroiken]

I generally don't call for the roll until it's too late to change anything if they fail. So if they fail the roll to see the Glyph of Warding, it will go off because they interacted with it (which is when I called for the roll). If they want to examine something, I have them make a roll, and tell them they find something or they see nothing unusual (pass/fail), and I don't allow new checks unless something changes (to prevent the "I'm rolling until I get a 20 mentality).

In the case of traps, If they pass or if they fail by less than 5, I tell them they've disarmed the trap. If they fail by 5 or more, they set off the trap in the process. This keeps everyone on their toes, even with "disarmed" traps

 

[Kobold Stew]

Yesterday, while running a game, this situation arose:

A locked, magically trapped (glyph of warding) chest. Thief uses perception to examine the chest, to see if it is trapped. He fails his check. Does the magical trap go off? If it was a nonmagical trap, would it go off? The magical trap can only be removed by a successful Arcana check, correct? So the trap shouldn't go off just from the perception check failure, because then you'd never get to the Arcana check, right? Or do you only get the chance to make the Arcana check IF you successfully notice something with perception?

And if the thief is disarming a non-magical trap with thieves' tools, is EVERY failure to disarm enough to set off the trap? Or is there some middle ground where "you don't disarm it, but you don't trigger it either"? HELP! My players and I are all getting very frustrated with the 5e skill system, and I'm hoping it is just a matter of me overlooking the correct method for dealing with failure.

If I were DM (and, honestly, what I'd want if I were player as well):

Failed perception check = "You are convinced the chest is not trapped" (that's the response whether or not it is trapped). The trap does not trigger. You don't proceed to the arcana check, because you are convinced that it is not trapped.

If you perceive the trap and attempt to disarm, a failure results in the trap tripping. You can have a buddy help you (as per any check, assuming they are trained in the relevant skill). If a player wants to have a better chance not to trip it, they can say they are taking their time, or whatever, and get advantage. But the roll is the roll.

Glyph of Warding isn't going to be discovered except through an investigation roll, which requires a conscious action. Failure doesn't set it off, but "You are convinced there are no hidden magical glyphs". I'd also allow a passive perception check to notice it without an action, since you want to reward anyone who's investing that much in their passive investigation checks.

 

[GMMichael]

A locked, magically trapped (glyph of warding) chest. Thief uses perception to examine the chest, to see if it is trapped. He fails his check. Does the magical trap go off? If it was a nonmagical trap, would it go off? The magical trap can only be removed by a successful Arcana check, correct? So the trap shouldn't go off just from the perception check failure, because then you'd never get to the Arcana check, right? Or do you only get the chance to make the Arcana check IF you successfully notice something with perception?

And if the thief is disarming a non-magical trap with thieves' tools, is EVERY failure to disarm enough to set off the trap? Or is there some middle ground where "you don't disarm it, but you don't trigger it either"? HELP! My players and I are all getting very frustrated with the 5e skill system, and I'm hoping it is just a matter of me overlooking the correct method for dealing with failure.

1) See above answers. They're good.

2) You're not roleplaying, you're rule-playing. The thief didn't "use perception" to examine the chest. He's not making a tool-proficiency check to see if he disarms the trap (or whatever the disarm skill is). The PC should be saying, "a chest huh? I hold my hands over it. Do I feel anything? I look over the lid for levers or wires. Anything?" And that way you have enough knowledge to decide what kind of roll to make, if any.

DM: "You want to make a perception check? What's that?"

 

[Sunseeker]

Yesterday, while running a game, this situation arose:

I don't understand the problem. YOU are running the game correct? Unless this is an explicit item from the books, in which case it will tell you what happens with failure, otherwise YOU are the DM. YOU decide what happens, when it happens and how it happens.

The correct method of dealing with failure is situational. The game cannot tell you how to handle EVERY SINGLE situation. If he failed to disarm a trap, either the trap goes off or nothing happens, that's the usual situation.

 

[GX.Sigma]

A locked, magically trapped (glyph of warding) chest. Thief uses perception to examine the chest, to see if it is trapped. He fails his check. Does the magical trap go off? If it was a nonmagical trap, would it go off? The magical trap can only be removed by a successful Arcana check, correct? So the trap shouldn't go off just from the perception check failure, because then you'd never get to the Arcana check, right? Or do you only get the chance to make the Arcana check IF you successfully notice something with perception?

DMG p. 120-121. "If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it."

And if the thief is disarming a non-magical trap with thieves' tools, is EVERY failure to disarm enough to set off the trap? Or is there some middle ground where "you don't disarm it, but you don't trigger it either"?

The rule of thumb: If they fail by 5 or more, the hazard is triggered. I thought this was in the books, but I can't find it now.

 

[iserith]

Yesterday, while running a game, this situation arose:

A locked, magically trapped (glyph of warding) chest. Thief uses perception to examine the chest, to see if it is trapped. He fails his check. Does the magical trap go off? If it was a nonmagical trap, would it go off? The magical trap can only be removed by a successful Arcana check, correct? So the trap shouldn't go off just from the perception check failure, because then you'd never get to the Arcana check, right? Or do you only get the chance to make the Arcana check IF you successfully notice something with perception?

And if the thief is disarming a non-magical trap with thieves' tools, is EVERY failure to disarm enough to set off the trap? Or is there some middle ground where "you don't disarm it, but you don't trigger it either"? HELP! My players and I are all getting very frustrated with the 5e skill system, and I'm hoping it is just a matter of me overlooking the correct method for dealing with failure.

The first thing to consider is the trigger on the glyph of warding. I'm going to assume the one you cite is triggered by laying eyes upon it.

The DM asks for ability checks when the action described by the player for his or her character has an uncertain outcome in the eyes of the DM. By asking for a Wisdom (Perception) check from the thief, you are saying his action to detect traps on the chest is uncertain. The check resolves the uncertainty into: (A) He does find the trap quickly and safely (success); (B) He does not find the trap (failure); or (C) He does find the trap or makes progress toward finding it, but there is a setback (failure). My preference in adjudicating this kind of situation is C. "As you search the chest, you catch the dim glow of what can only be a magical glyph out of the corner of your eye. If you carelessly lay eyes upon this thing, you will set it off. What do you do?" Now an attempt to disarm it by trying to disrupt its magical power might be an action with an uncertain outcome that calls for an ability check at disadvantage for the rogue. Or it might even be impossible for him, depending on the situation, meaning it will be on someone else to deal with it.

Generally speaking, I recommend that any botched attempt to detect a trap result in finding the trap but essentially having one's foot on the landmine- the trigger plate is partially depressed, the tripwire is nearly sprung, the timer just sped up and now it's red-wire-or-blue-wire time, etc. One more wrong move and the thing goes off and immediate action is required. This helps create dramatic tension and makes the interaction involving the trap less binary. (Alternately, you could say the trap is found, but it takes a lot of time, if time is a factor in the adventure scenario. Just because a trap is successfully found, doesn't mean it'll be successfully disarmed, after all, and so a good choice for stakes in failure is a precious resource like time.)

I don't recommend what [MENTION=23484]Kobold Stew[/MENTION] says where you tell the player what his character thinks. As it says on page 66 of the Basic Rules, a player determines how his or her character thinks, acts, or talks. All the DM does is tell the player the results of the actions their characters take. Try using a variety of stakes for any given ability check appropriate to the situation and the kind of tension you want to create. (I also recommend saying what the stakes are prior to asking for the roll. If you want to discuss some examples, let me know.)

 

[Hussar]

I don't recommend what @Kobold Stew says where you tell the player what his character thinks. As it says on page 66 of the Basic Rules, a player determines how his or her character thinks, acts, or talks. All the DM does is tell the player the results of the actions their characters take. Try using a variety of stakes for any given ability check appropriate to the situation and the kind of tension you want to create. (I also recommend saying what the stakes are prior to asking for the roll. If you want to discuss some examples, let me know.)

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?424866-skill-failure-where-is-it-discussed#ixzz3TCKCoO9M

"You examine the chest and find nothing out of the ordinary." is a pretty valid way of getting around telling people how they feel. But, I think, in context, Kobold Stew's idea is fine. "You think it's not trapped" is hardly turning someone's PC into a robot. AFAIC, either way is fine.