D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Oh they usually want for money, but that is due to the poor farmboy part of poor farmboy destined for greatness cliche in many cases.

 

[MoonSong]

In my game I'm assuming that magic isn't what it once was, which may work better in Greyhawk with the fallen Suel and Baklunish empires and their annihilations, and the art of creating most stuff is lost.

The problems come when you don't want to play in those "long after the fall of the Empire" scenarios. Why should I be limited to have my campaigns in very specific time periods? why can't I play in a golden age when those lost arts haven't been lost yet?

Hiya!

Here's another 2¢...

I totally get why some people want more in-depth rules for creating magic items. That said, there are actual rules for creating magic items in the DMG...some folks just don't like them. Fair enough.

However, what I'd like to point out is that of the "Is it easier to give something to your players, or take it away from them?" problem. I remember pointing this little tid-bit out to the 2nd edition folks when 2e had just hit the market. Everyone was all about the "new options/spells/classes/etc". If you, as DM, go to your players and say "Hey guys, in this campaign I've decided to remove level caps for demi-humans", most players would be pleased if not outright excited. But if the game allows for unlimited leveling by default and you, as DM, go to your players and say "Hey guys, in this campaign I've decided to add level caps for demi-humans"...well, prepare for a poop storm of epic proportions! You'd hear everything from You just don't want us to have fun! all the way to You just suck as a DM and can't handle it!.

Why? Simply because the "default assumption/rule" has been taken away from them. Even if it was never really in their hands to begin with, because it was printed in the book as default, the players feel entitled to use it. Period. If there were detailed rules for creating magic items, and detailed lists of the costs of magic items, this would be the "default assumption/rule", even if it was labeled as "Optional" (sort of how Multi-Classing and Feats are...they are OPTIONAL, but so-o many complaints or build-optimizations are just outright assuming they are used...leads to a lot of bickering and heartache; better if they weren't even there, IMHO). As those magic item rules would be in the books, if/when a DM said "Nope", many players would feel all that negativity towards the DM's "ruling" instantly.

Now, call me crazy, but I'd rather have a game system written so that when the DM makes a ruling, exception, addition, etc., that the players get positive feelings. They think "Oh, hey! That's cool! So dwarves from the Iron Clan of Khoranite can be multi-classed Paladin/Sorcerers? And the're called the Iron Spells, like some sort of elite fighting contingent? Coooolll......!". That's MUCH better than saying "Nope, you can't do that".

Cool idea, yes you can! <--- leads to warm fuzzies and positive reinforcement.
No, you can't. Forget it! <--- leads to cold pricklies and negative feedback.

So...keep the detailed magic item creation and costs OUT OF THE GAME. Rough, vague, and heavily DM-interpreted rules for this kind of thing is FAR superior, IMHO.

Besides, allowing purchasing of magic items is an all-or-nothing thing. If one player in the group wants to be able to, two players don't much care, and one player doesn't like the idea....if it is allowed, EVERYONE but the player who wants it will be getting the "cold prickles". Basically, if the other three players don't start buying and optimizing their character via magic item purchases, they will quickly encounter more and more "cold pricklies" type things during the game sessions as their characters quickly become out-classed by the magic-purchasing optimization fiend. So, like power gamers, it's a group All-or-Nothing endevour. You can't "just have one guy" in the group do it and maintain a balanced campaign. Allowing the purchasing of magic items only leads to one thing: OP, optimized, characters. I've never seen it end up any other way.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

But what if I want my players to do it without needing me to micromanage what they are doing? Or to be able to do it without being subject to my whims? I need balanced crafting rules that don't need my approval at every single step and that are easy to communicate with my players. The complex quest based one in this edition is not that helpful if you want to play something like Eberron or if you have a very high magic world. I know that taking away is harder, but it is also very hard to create a subsystem out of thin air when you need it.

There is definitely that too, which is part of why I think save the world adventure paths are so common. Fantasy about just getting enough cash to get your through the next round of ale and whores isn't as prominent. Though if anyone know of modern authors that write that kind of fantasy fiction I'd like to know.

Speaking of these, the main reason I want a list of magic items and magic shops, to allow for any kind of plot without having to take a detour because the party scout needs a set of goggles to keep being the party scout once we move the rest of the campaign into the underdark.(And to me a magic item has to feel magical on its own instead of needing three to four sessions of sidequesting to feel special) These rules for magic item crafting work very well on platonic sandboxes, but the way I like to play is far from it, and it should have no bearing on whether my players deserve to have fun with magic items or not.

 

[Coredump]

The premise of 5E is that Magic items are special and rare. Yes you can buy some, the PHB says you will not "normally" come across magic items to purchase. Same with selling, you need to find someone that is willing to pay what its worth.

If magic items are rare, then making them must be either time consuming, difficult, or expensive (or some combination).
1) If not, then lots of folks would make them, and they would not be rare
2) If not, then it defeats the game design purpose of making them special and rare. If you can just make whatever you want.... that is a lot easier than questing for it.

In this type of system, it means magic is likely expensive to get what you want. It also means that the 'price' is going to greatly depend on where you are, who it selling it, why they are selling it, etc etc In this type of situation, to say Item A is worth Xgp is meaningless.... way too many variables involved.



If you want a system with relatively set prices... you want a system with relatively easy access to various magic items.
the more consistent you want the prices, the more accessible the items must be.... this also allows easier creation rules.


But now two problems develop for the designers...
Where on the "No Magic"-------"Monty Haul" continuum do you want to be? How many different price lists and creation rules do they need to come up with?
Assuming you create these additional rules, how does it impact the default system you already have in place? (Keeping in mind their disdain for bloat and splatbooks changing expectations)


Yes, they are professional designers.... but they *can't* design a professional game without knowing the underlying premise of the availablilty of magic and ease of creation. They did create one underlying premise.... but if you don't like that one, then you are using your own... if you are using your own, they can't know what that is like?

 

[mlund]

I still love how Legend of the Five Rings handled magic items. Permanent magic items become so because of the spirit inside the item. Its awakening and nature is based on it acquiring this soul from its creator and / or wielders. Magicians do not run around "making magic swords" or wands etc. Only deity-level figures can do that. Instead mortals can enchant or imbue things temporarily.

The only guy whoever made a bevy of swords that were magical "off the rack" as it were did it by blood magic and human sacrifice - actually torturing and murdering people and then incarcerating their tormented souls in said blades to make them instruments of madness and bloodshed.

I prefer my D&D along those lines. When you find a non-consumable magic item it has a history that begins with something other than, "A wizard did it." It eliminates the "magic item economy" issues too. Every item is unique - its origin, its current owner, and what it would take to get its current owner to part with it. Sometimes the cost of a magic item is "however much gold it'd cost to put the screws to the current owner." I'm very thankful that Permanent Magic Item Creation and the resulting economic models are not a part of the Core D&D game, but could easily be integrated into a game settling of your choice if that's your cup of tea.

Marty Lund

 

[pming]

Hiya!

The problems come when you don't want to play in those "long after the fall of the Empire" scenarios. Why should I be limited to have my campaigns in very specific time periods? why can't I play in a golden age when those lost arts haven't been lost yet?

If you are going to go through the time and effort of creating an entire campaign world set in the "golden age of magic", then jotting down at least a page or two of notes on how common it is for people to own and buy magic items is something you're going to be doing anyway. Just go a step further and come up with base formula's for how and what types of items you want available. How is "creating prices for magic items" and more difficult than "creating the history and social norms of nine different countries"? Both would take you're brain to imagine it and write it down.

But what if I want my players to do it without needing me to micromanage what they are doing? Or to be able to do it without being subject to my whims? I need balanced crafting rules that don't need my approval at every single step and that are easy to communicate with my players. The complex quest based one in this edition is not that helpful if you want to play something like Eberron or if you have a very high magic world. I know that taking away is harder, but it is also very hard to create a subsystem out of thin air when you need it.

I really don't see the problem you are seeing. DM'ing is all about "whims"; that's the whole "using your imagination to help weave a fun and exciting fantasy adventure". There isn't a rule for determining how many kids the town miller has. If you just blurt out "You see the miller, a look of hopelessness on his face. Around him are 11 of his 15 children, screaming, running, chasing squirrels and mice. His eye brighten up as he sees you approaching". You just decided all that "on a whim". And yes, it could EASILY affect the game as much as the price of a Ring of Water Walking. I've seen entire campaigns go off on some weird and totally unexpected tangent that the players latched onto for Asmodeus-knows what reason. Like the time we started an Aliens campaign...at the end of the first session we were no longer colonial marines; we were owner/operators of a space-transport company with the tag line of "It's on our way...". Why? The DM decided something "on a whim" to add flavour to the setting description and someone in the group latched on, then another, then another. Poof! Our "Aliens" game turned into "Space Merchants". All because of a whim.

This was one of the most memorable and fun campaigns of any game we have ever played.

Speaking of these, the main reason I want a list of magic items and magic shops, to allow for any kind of plot without having to take a detour because the party scout needs a set of goggles to keep being the party scout once we move the rest of the campaign into the underdark.(And to me a magic item has to feel magical on its own instead of needing three to four sessions of sidequesting to feel special) These rules for magic item crafting work very well on platonic sandboxes, but the way I like to play is far from it, and it should have no bearing on whether my players deserve to have fun with magic items or not.

Dude, you do realize that deciding to move the rest of the campaign into the underdark is a "whim", right? When you decide to do that, or they decide to, you (I'm going to say "you" when it could be "them", as appropriate to whomever decided to go into the underdark)... should also be thinking of the logistics and what is likely to be needed (from your point of view, the DM's I'm assuming). I mean, are there rules for air quality? What about temperature? How about how hard it is to forage for edible food like mushrooms or insects? Small rodents? Large rodents only found in the underdark? What about fishing in streams? How about how to determine if water is drinkable? There are no "rules" for those either. I'm assuming you've thought of how you are going to handle them. I'm also pretty sure that the rules you come up for surviving in the "wilderness" of the underdark will be FAR more a determining factor for feel of the campaign as well as PC survival than "accidentally deciding that Goggles of Darkvision are too expensive". If you seriously think the scout in the underdark is going to get screwed because of everything...just give him some frickin' Goggle of Darkvision already. It's not rocket science. Maybe one of the parties contacts says "I hear you are heading down into the underdark. Nasty place, that. Had to live down there for over a month. Worst month of my life. Here, take these Goggles of Darkvision. If you get out alive, maybe you can bring them back to me and tell me of your adventures down there over cold pint of brew."

The problem with magic item shops is the inevitability of ridiculous power creep and optimization. If you think "winging" prices for magic item is bad...wait until your fully decked out party of 5th level PC's are cleaning up on CR 15 monsters six times a day. You'll be "winging" power buffs, templates, extra attacks, higher hp's, better saves, etc. all day long. ... You're much better off "winging" a few magic item prices on a case by case basis, I'd wager...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Speaking of these, the main reason I want a list of magic items and magic shops, to allow for any kind of plot without having to take a detour because the party scout needs a set of goggles to keep being the party scout once we move the rest of the campaign into the underdark.(And to me a magic item has to feel magical on its own instead of needing three to four sessions of sidequesting to feel special) These rules for magic item crafting work very well on platonic sandboxes, but the way I like to play is far from it, and it should have no bearing on whether my players deserve to have fun with magic items or not.

The problem is that D&D is not a generic system, and instead it is built on a number of basic assumptions that are spelled out on in the DMG. You're more than welcome to change any of those assumptions, but because they are so fundamental and inter-connected, it's not as simple as just adding two pages with charts and formulas and expecting everything else to still mesh together.

 

[Remathilis]

I honestly don't see what's wrong with you. Can you really be that petty and selfish, Rem?

If I play Forgotten Realms, or Kingdoms of Kalamaar, or whatever, the first thing I don't do, is convert everything about magic items to the pseudo-industrial level of Eberron...

I'm sorry, but if you feel compelled to make all your worlds the same, just because WotC adds back support for a magic item economy, I have to leave you behind. I can't let the frustrations of many many gamers be stopped just because a thing that you don't even have to read, much less use, ruins the fun for you.

Please say I am misunderstanding you.

Oh, I can be petty and selfish, but this isn't one of those times.

What I am trying to say (that you are obviously ignoring to preserve your own confirmation bias) is that the logic of easily purchasable magic items would begin to create a world LESS built around the ideas of say, Greyhawk, and more around those of Eberron. Now, it doesn't need to be at Eberron's level of industry, but once you instill the notion that "a wizard sits around making +1 swords to sell in a major city for adventurers to buy", how much farther is it to "And he makes magic lanterns for street lights. And magical communication stations to warn of far-off armies marching. And he makes horseless carriages that can carry nobles over long distance without tiring." And so on.

For me, 3e/4e era crafting creates the following problems.

1.) It makes magical items a commodity bought and sold, and thus turns gold into yet-another-tool for PCs to acquire power. (the WPL problem)
2.) It creates an entitlement sense that any PC with enough gold can go buy/create a holy avenger, staff of power, or any other item of their choosing. (The Open Catalog problem)
3.) It makes players seek out the "best investment", often by taking situational items (like a folding boat) or less-than-perfect items (a +2 greataxe to a greatsword wielder) and selling them to acquire more useful (read math-raising) items. (The Big Six problem)
4.) It creates the notion that gold NOT spent in the acquisition of said items is "wasteful." (WPL Assumption)
5.) It creates a notion that such items can be bought in any major city, and thus sit around waiting for PCs to go in and buy them (The Magic Item Shoppe problem)
6.) Which creates a notion "If I can go and buy a +1 sword, why doesn't the king buy a decanter of endless water to run his sewer system with?" (The Eberron corollary)

These are all issues that 5e RAW fixes and that doesn't need to be rebroken. That said, if WotC ever does a UA for item prices, more power to them. I can ignore it as I wish. I just don't ever want to see the Crafting/Buying of Magical items be assumed by the core rules again.

I guess I'm petty and selfish like that.

 

[DaveDash]

Oh, I can be petty and selfish, but this isn't one of those times.

What I am trying to say (that you are obviously ignoring to preserve your own confirmation bias) is that the logic of easily purchasable magic items would begin to create a world LESS built around the ideas of say, Greyhawk, and more around those of Eberron. Now, it doesn't need to be at Eberron's level of industry, but once you instill the notion that "a wizard sits around making +1 swords to sell in a major city for adventurers to buy", how much farther is it to "And he makes magic lanterns for street lights. And magical communication stations to warn of far-off armies marching. And he makes horseless carriages that can carry nobles over long distance without tiring." And so on.

For me, 3e/4e era crafting creates the following problems.

1.) It makes magical items a commodity bought and sold, and thus turns gold into yet-another-tool for PCs to acquire power. (the WPL problem)
2.) It creates an entitlement sense that any PC with enough gold can go buy/create a holy avenger, staff of power, or any other item of their choosing. (The Open Catalog problem)
3.) It makes players seek out the "best investment", often by taking situational items (like a folding boat) or less-than-perfect items (a +2 greataxe to a greatsword wielder) and selling them to acquire more useful (read math-raising) items. (The Big Six problem)
4.) It creates the notion that gold NOT spent in the acquisition of said items is "wasteful." (WPL Assumption)
5.) It creates a notion that such items can be bought in any major city, and thus sit around waiting for PCs to go in and buy them (The Magic Item Shoppe problem)
6.) Which creates a notion "If I can go and buy a +1 sword, why doesn't the king buy a decanter of endless water to run his sewer system with?" (The Eberron corollary)

These are all issues that 5e RAW fixes and that doesn't need to be rebroken. That said, if WotC ever does a UA for item prices, more power to them. I can ignore it as I wish. I just don't ever want to see the Crafting/Buying of Magical items be assumed by the core rules again.

I guess I'm petty and selfish like that.

You're not selfish but you don't understand the argument, probably because of your own confirmation bias.

People who are arguing for magic item prices are not arguing for 'easily purchasable' magic items or walmarts of magic items. Some posters quite the opposite actually. They're arguing that the designers *should* have put this stuff in the game to save them the hassle of having to do it for themselves, and it's not a niche demand, it's something which the past two editions and pathfinder supported/s.

If the designers say scrapped lazer rifles in the DMG (and some other variant rules that belong more in an Unearthed Arcana), and instead designed more robust magic item economy support (as a variant rule), that would have made a lot of people who want player driven gear acquisition/advancement happy.

 

[MoonSong]

You're not selfish but you don't understand the argument, probably because of your own confirmation bias.

People who are arguing for magic item prices are not arguing for 'easily purchasable' magic items or walmarts of magic items. Some posters quite the opposite actually. They're arguing that the designers *should* have put this stuff in the game to save them the hassle of having to do it for themselves, and it's not a niche demand, it's something which the past two editions and pathfinder supported/s.

If the designers say scrapped lazer rifles in the DMG (and some other variant rules that belong more in an Unearthed Arcana), and instead designed more robust magic item economy support (as a variant rule), that would have made a lot of people who want player driven gear acquisition/advancement happy.

Don't go that far, just a web enhancement/UA will suffice. The point isn't having the one true way, the point is having the guideliness and they being easy to communicate to players.

 

[DaveDash]

Don't go that far, just a web enhancement/UA will suffice. The point isn't having the one true way, the point is having the guideliness and they being easy to communicate to players.

I'd be happy with a web enhancement but it's not coming. Hard to do properly = higher cost to create = not happening in this edition.