D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Flexor the Mighty!]

In my game I'm assuming that magic isn't what it once was, which may work better in Greyhawk with the fallen Suel and Baklunish empires and their annihilations, and the art of creating most stuff is lost.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Juliet gets a Feign Death potion from Friar Lawrence, and that potion is either magic or sufficiently advanced technology... but she's not buying the potion with gold coins which she gained when she fought packs of kobolds, driving them from the outskirts of Verona so that humans can re-settle the area, is she? She's not balancing that purchase against a +1 sword or saving towards a Bag of Holding. She's not *upgrading*, is really my point. She's interested in a purpose other than incrementing her Challenge Rating.

Juliet is a bad example- she's a sheltered girl from an upper-class mercantile background. She's not motivated in any way your thinking of because she isn't an adventurer and comes from money.

I *remain baffled* by the idea that "gold, when not spendable on magic items, is worthless". Help, please?

My guess is that- put that way- it is an extreme formulation of a negative reaction to the lack of a magic item economy.

Of course, those who are REALLY frustrated with that should take a page from Knights of the Dinner Table. In one story arc, the party buys a huge number of war dogs and sets them upon an enemy force...and then fails to subsequently control them. The mega pack of fierce canines ravage the land...

The pint? Massive amounts of wealth, spent with intent, can be equally disruptive when what is purchased is mundane or magical.

I know some DMs figured this out without KoDT making it obvious. I am aware of one table- not one I was at- in which the party amassed significant wealth before the DM decided to run the Against the Giants modules. The players, all army brats (such as myself), figured out they could hire a significant mercenary army with their combined cash, and did so- the modules were a cakewalk.

After that, the DM had less of a problem with PCs buying magic than he did with them shopping for trebuchets and warhorses.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I know some DMs figured this out without KoDT making it obvious. I am aware of one table- not one I was at- in which the party amassed significant wealth before the DM decided to run the Against the Giants modules. The players, all army brats (such as myself), figured out they could hire a significant mercenary army with their combined cash, and did so- the modules were a cakewalk.

After that, the DM had less of a problem with PCs buying magic than he did with them shopping for trebuchets and warhorses.

This is why bad guys should NEVER laugh at a rich party and tease them by saying " Oh yeah!! You and what army? "

 

[Jester David]

D&D is pretty much divorced from anything but emulating D&D IMO. And unlike the dawn of the game where players were looking to add some Conan or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser to their tabletop game now players are coming from I'm guessing a more CRPG and MMO background with totally different expectations.

Me I'm at the point where I love D&D unless I think about it too deeply, then the tropes and things start to fall apart and I wonder why I'm messing with it. The idea that you come out of the dungeon with x number of gold which lets you live the high life for X number of months and then when the ales and whores have dried up you go back out looking for that next big score really doesn't resonate with players I talk to as much, even old school players who have been playing D&D since the 80's but playing the 3e+ versions of the game now for 15 years.

I'd disagree with that.
While it's possible to play D&D as D&D with all the conventions of the game and history, the base rules themselves are neutral and subject to the assumptions people bring with them. So MMO players will expect regular loot and a high turnover of gear, but new players inspired by fantasy fiction - both modern and classic - might try and emulate those sources of inspiration. To someone new, approaching D&D now isn't *that* different from approaching at "the dawn of the game".
Only instead of looking to add some Conan or Fafhrd they're adding some Harry Potter and Percy Jackson.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Here's another 2¢...

I totally get why some people want more in-depth rules for creating magic items. That said, there are actual rules for creating magic items in the DMG...some folks just don't like them. Fair enough.

However, what I'd like to point out is that of the "Is it easier to give something to your players, or take it away from them?" problem. I remember pointing this little tid-bit out to the 2nd edition folks when 2e had just hit the market. Everyone was all about the "new options/spells/classes/etc". If you, as DM, go to your players and say "Hey guys, in this campaign I've decided to remove level caps for demi-humans", most players would be pleased if not outright excited. But if the game allows for unlimited leveling by default and you, as DM, go to your players and say "Hey guys, in this campaign I've decided to add level caps for demi-humans"...well, prepare for a poop storm of epic proportions! You'd hear everything from You just don't want us to have fun! all the way to You just suck as a DM and can't handle it!.

Why? Simply because the "default assumption/rule" has been taken away from them. Even if it was never really in their hands to begin with, because it was printed in the book as default, the players feel entitled to use it. Period. If there were detailed rules for creating magic items, and detailed lists of the costs of magic items, this would be the "default assumption/rule", even if it was labeled as "Optional" (sort of how Multi-Classing and Feats are...they are OPTIONAL, but so-o many complaints or build-optimizations are just outright assuming they are used...leads to a lot of bickering and heartache; better if they weren't even there, IMHO). As those magic item rules would be in the books, if/when a DM said "Nope", many players would feel all that negativity towards the DM's "ruling" instantly.

Now, call me crazy, but I'd rather have a game system written so that when the DM makes a ruling, exception, addition, etc., that the players get positive feelings. They think "Oh, hey! That's cool! So dwarves from the Iron Clan of Khoranite can be multi-classed Paladin/Sorcerers? And the're called the Iron Spells, like some sort of elite fighting contingent? Coooolll......!". That's MUCH better than saying "Nope, you can't do that".

Cool idea, yes you can! <--- leads to warm fuzzies and positive reinforcement.
No, you can't. Forget it! <--- leads to cold pricklies and negative feedback.

So...keep the detailed magic item creation and costs OUT OF THE GAME. Rough, vague, and heavily DM-interpreted rules for this kind of thing is FAR superior, IMHO.

Besides, allowing purchasing of magic items is an all-or-nothing thing. If one player in the group wants to be able to, two players don't much care, and one player doesn't like the idea....if it is allowed, EVERYONE but the player who wants it will be getting the "cold prickles". Basically, if the other three players don't start buying and optimizing their character via magic item purchases, they will quickly encounter more and more "cold pricklies" type things during the game sessions as their characters quickly become out-classed by the magic-purchasing optimization fiend. So, like power gamers, it's a group All-or-Nothing endevour. You can't "just have one guy" in the group do it and maintain a balanced campaign. Allowing the purchasing of magic items only leads to one thing: OP, optimized, characters. I've never seen it end up any other way.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

No reason to ever create scrolls? I hope you are joking.

I am an adventuring mage with time and gold on my hands. I can only cast X number of spells per day before needing a rest to recover some magical energy. How would having a half dozen or more EXTRA ready to cast spells above and beyond that limit possibly help me? Nope can't think of anything. Yep. Scrolls are useless.

1.) You'd have to find the formula first.
2.) It takes months or years to create each scroll.
3.) Concentration economy is, in my experience, more restrictive than spell slot economy. Maybe because I'm stingy.
4.) Spells compete with the opportunity cost, whether that is spell research or permanent reusable items just as good as spell scrolls and more reusable. Wand of Web, Brazier of Summoning Fire Elementals, Winged Boots, etc. Some of these are also superior in the concentration economy.

I would be hard-pressed to think of a spell worth creating a scroll for under DMG rules, compared to the opportunity cost. If you have suggestions let's see your numbers.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'd disagree with that.
While it's possible to play D&D as D&D with all the conventions of the game and history, the base rules themselves are neutral and subject to the assumptions people bring with them. So MMO players will expect regular loot and a high turnover of gear, but new players inspired by fantasy fiction - both modern and classic - might try and emulate those sources of inspiration. To someone new, approaching D&D now isn't *that* different from approaching at "the dawn of the game".
Only instead of looking to add some Conan or Fafhrd they're adding some Harry Potter and Percy Jackson.

There is definitely that too, which is part of why I think save the world adventure paths are so common. Fantasy about just getting enough cash to get your through the next round of ale and whores isn't as prominent. Though if anyone know of modern authors that write that kind of fantasy fiction I'd like to know.

 

[ExploderWizard]

1.) You'd have to find the formula first.
2.) It takes months or years to create each scroll.
3.) Concentration economy is, in my experience, more restrictive than spell slot economy. Maybe because I'm stingy.
4.) Spells compete with the opportunity cost, whether that is spell research or permanent reusable items just as good as spell scrolls and more reusable. Wand of Web, Brazier of Summoning Fire Elementals, Winged Boots, etc. Some of these are also superior in the concentration economy.

I would be hard-pressed to think of a spell worth creating a scroll for under DMG rules, compared to the opportunity cost. If you have suggestions let's see your numbers.

Well, as far as having the formula goes, if you know the spell then you should be able to prepare scrolls given the right materials and time. Opportunity cost will vary from campaign to campaign. What if permanent item creation is a lost art or costs 10X as much in a given campaign? Assuming that you can make anything listed in the DMG simply because there are suggested rules for it isn't a great idea.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yes. It is that easy. You don't need to set it up for the whole list.

If you do advance preparation, you come up with a handful of magic items you would like the characters to have access to, price them according to what your players can afford, set up a magic shop, let your players role-play buying them. If you want to have magic items made, then do the same thing save have a timetable for them to be made.

If you're interested in setting up magic like 3E, then use 3E books to set up the prices and use 3E conventions for gold. That's what you appear to be asking for.

Why do you need your players to be able to open up the DMG and have a set price for all magic items in an edition of D&D that is specifically not made for you to be able to do that? Even the attunement rules are there to make sure your players have no more than a handful of magic items. Three attuned and anything more than a simple +1 sword or suit of armor or a separately carried back is attuned. That means three attuned magic items and maybe a few extra items here and there at most is the design of the new game.

You should have no trouble coming up with a few available magic items for your players to buy that are useful and should be able to make the experience of acquiring them fun. This edition most assuredly was not set up to be in anyway like 3E with magic shops everywhere. If you want that, then use the 3E magic item rules and gold conventions. Then adjust all your monsters and encounters to account for using 3E magic item and gold rules. You'll have to do it all on your own because 5E was not built for 3E magic item items as easily acquired products rules. It would be your house rule. It is possible for you to do it using older editions and adjusting your encounters to fit that model.

You continue to talk about adding set prices to the DMG even though you know I am not advocating it.

You keep saying adding prices is easy even though I have told you that a pricing guideline as involved as 3E is a very complex undertaking. Saying things like "price them according to what your players can afford" or "use 3E books to set up the prices" shows a complete neglect of actually attempting to understand my position.

Why do you keep saying "it would be my house rule", when you know I am discussing official support?

Otherwise, you are out of luck. You can argue until you're blue in the face that you think the option should have been available. Maybe they make something like it available in later books or a third party vendor makes it available. It is pretty obvious that the designers of 5E did not intend in anyway for magic items to be that available and did provide an option for it other than what you make up. 5E doesn't want magic item shops with easily available magic items. The game isn't balanced for it. The rules don't encourage it. So why include something the game is not currently built for?

Because WotC have said they plan to add more support for previous editions?

Because I have argued the lack of a consistent item pricing mechanism is probably the #1 frustration if you want to play the game the way I have described?


I think we're done. You aren't listening to me. Why should I listen to you?

 

[Jester David]

There is definitely that too, which is part of why I think save the world adventure paths are so common. Fantasy about just getting enough cash to get your through the next round of ale and whores isn't as prominent. Though if anyone know of modern authors that write that kind of fantasy fiction I'd like to know.

A lot of classic characters tended to live hand-to-mouth. Conan, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric to an extent. They find a treasure and then spend said treasure. And most fantasy stories start out with tight purse strings or the protagonists struggling to make ends meet, such as the Kingkiller Chronicle, Wheel of Time, and some characters in Game of Thrones. Even the franchise fiction, such as the Drizzt books or the Dragonlance Chronicles series have heroes with limited means who aren't "making it rain".

I imagine that goes hand-in-hand with the everyman farmboy protagonist. A useful trope as they learn about the world at the same time as the audience making it easier to understand the book. And a convention of being young is being poor.

Fantasy books and other fiction where the protagonists don't want for money are rare. Harry Potter might be an exception, but the first book hews closer to fairy tales in structure, and finding out your unknown family was exceedingly wealthy is a trope of that genre (although Harry's money never really seems to be useful, so he might as well be poor).