D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Have you never been part of a long time group that decides things by consensus? Banning magic items, spells, and the like is not always an option. Sometimes players argue against those types of changes. Just recently we ended up in a big discussion over Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter and the impact of both feats on the game. One player refused to allow them to be changed. This isn't a simple, "Find another player." We've been playing with this guy for twenty plus years and we are friends outside of the game as well. It is not an option to "find another player" that will allow you to wield the DM heavy stick.

Well, I've been part of one group that has had a game active since 1985 or so (going from 1Ed to 2Ed to 3.x), @2/3 of which's members have joined a second, larger group around 1998-99. And in that time, it has alway been- regardless of campaign, regardless of system- DM sets the table, players decide whether to eat or not.

Meaning that the DM runs the campaign he wants with the rules he wants, and the players play in the games they want. We've had campaigns run where one or more player sat out the entire run- some, more than a year. Because we're adults, we can handle it. It isn't personal if nobody wants to play the game you like, nor if everyone but you is playing in a game you don't. There are no hostages: nobody is forcing anyone to run or play a game they don't like.

We've had campaigns that only the GM wanted to run that didn't get run, so something else by someBODY else got run instead. (And most of the guys in the group HAVE run games for the group.)

Only half of the big group played in the year+ long 4Ed group. A similar number tried my Mutants & Masterminds game that lasted 4 months. Another guy's 3.5 game lasted @6 sessions. Nobody was interested in my fantasy campaign set in the worlds of the M:tG game after I revealed I'd be using HERO.

No game has had 100% participation.

If nobody has an active game/campaign idea people want to play, out come the boardgames like Arkham Asylum. Or poker. Or movie night. Or a dinner party.

All of which means:

You can tell me until your blue in the face that "DM can do what he want." It isn't the case. Players get to pick a DM they enjoy as well and usually do have some say over what rules will be used, especially in long time groups.

Your experience and mine clearly differ.

 

[Remathilis]

Where is it written that the DM has to give the PCs everything the players ask for?

And crafting feats aren't exactly a wish factory either- PCs still have to acquire the materials, wealth and time to make whatever it is.

Its a tradeoff: when you're crafting, you're not adventuring. When you're adventuring, you're not crafting.

What materials? By RAW, you need five things: the proper feat (non-expendable), the proper spell(s) known (non-expendable), gold for nondescript "materials", time, and XP.

Lets make a +1 longsword. By RAW, it takes a 5th level caster, no spells (for basic enchantments), 1000 gp + a 315 gp masterwork sword, 2 days, and 80 XP.

That's 3.5. Pathfinder is the same, but omit the XP requirement. You could argue that taking an 80 XP hit was deterrent to crafting, but PF doesn't have that. If you have the gold and time, go at it.

Oh, 4e? You need to cast rituals (which some classes get for free, others need a feat), have Arcana, and be 4th level. Oh, and you need "components" equal to cost of the item, 1 hour, and the item to be enchanted. Assuming you can get Arcana components (and there is no reason why you shouldn't in a moderately sized town) you could pump out a +1 sword in an hour. So much for time. Its better than a magic-mart: its a wish-based vending machine!

All RAW. There is basically no real time crush to make simple items; and complex ones are rarely over a week unless your making epic-level crap. 3.5 tried to balance this with an XP sink, something WotC (and Paizo) abandoned post 2008. So unless your going to house-rule requiring dragon's blood or the tears of angels or somesuch, crafting IS the easy way to get exactly what you want.* But the rules are written to assume easy access, so we'll ignore house rules for now.

* Of course, there are a few high powered items that can't be crafted, and some items have skill, race, or other such requirements. So barring a few exceptions, any item the PC knows of can be replicated.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What materials? By RAW, you need five things: the proper feat (non-expendable), the proper spell(s) known (non-expendable), gold for nondescript "materials", time, and XP.

Lets make a +1 longsword. By RAW, it takes a 5th level caster, no spells (for basic enchantments), 1000 gp + a 315 gp masterwork sword, 2 days, and 80 XP.

That's 3.5. Pathfinder is the same, but omit the XP requirement. You could argue that taking an 80 XP hit was deterrent to crafting, but PF doesn't have that. If you have the gold and time, go at it.

Nondescript "materials" are still materials, and well within the control of the DM. When did the smith last get a grade of ore suitable for a masterwork weapon? He's short of what he'd need to make a sword? When does he get the next batch? 2 weeks.

Oh, but you'll be gone by then. No worries, pay half up front, and he'll put it aside for you for when you return...

Oh, 4e? You need to cast rituals (which some classes get for free, others need a feat), have Arcana, and be 4th level. Oh, and you need "components" equal to cost of the item, 1 hour, and the item to be enchanted. Assuming you can get Arcana components (and there is no reason why you shouldn't in a moderately sized town) you could pump out a +1 sword in an hour. So much for time. Its better than a magic-mart: its a wish-based vending machine!

(emphasis mine)

There most certainly IS a reason. Shortages of real world, mundane goods happen all the time, in every city in the world. As I mentioned upthread, I live in Dallas/Fort Worth- a major population center- and my local groceries ran out of bread last week- winter weather combined to keep shipments away from stores preceded by an anticipatory run for supplies by consumers.

Going further back in time, construction of our house was delayed 4 months by a combination of a labor shortage and a concrete shortage.

And time is STILL a factor. Smiths & apprentices need rest. The supply of steel is not infinite, nor is the supply of coal for the fires.

Besides, is making +1 swords for commerce the only thing that caster does? Probably not. The character has other demands on his time. If not great. He'll be the guy making +1 swords as a job. But he won't be much of an adventurer...

 

[Remathilis]

Nondescript "materials" are still materials, and well within the control of the DM. When did the smith last get a grade of ore suitable for a masterwork weapon? He's short of what he'd need to make a sword? When does he get the next batch? 2 weeks.

Oh, but you'll be gone by then. No worries, pay half up front, and he'll put it aside for you for when you return...

Well now, we're getting into the micromanaging element. Yes, as a DM I can rule yes or no on any given item, but realistically, how often does a DM claim you (assuming you have coin and are some area with reasonable trade*) you can't buy plate armor? Heavy Crossbows? A boat (near a body of water)? 200 feet of rope? All of these things are just as susceptible to market flux, but few DMs I've ever seen care about supply and demand of goods.

Speaking of which, we're diving back into houserules, unless you want to show me the part in the DMG where it talks about resource scarcity. Otherwise, its the DM Cockatrice-blocking you.

There most certainly IS a reason. Shortages of real world, mundane goods happen all the time, in every city in the world. As I mentioned upthread, I live in Dallas/Fort Worth- a major population center- and my local groceries ran out of bread last week- winter weather combined to keep shipments away from stores preceded by an anticipatory run for supplies by consumers.

Going further back in time, construction of our house was delayed 4 months by a combination of a labor shortage and a concrete shortage.

And time is STILL a factor. Smiths & apprentices need rest. The supply of steel is not infinite, nor is the supply of coal for the fires.

Besides, is making +1 swords for commerce the only thing that caster does? Probably not. The character has other demands on his time. If not great. He'll be the guy making +1 swords as a job. But he won't be much of an adventurer...

Again, the GAME ITSELF doesn't take these things into account. The game doesn't have a % chance that the weather will affect steel production, or that all coal miners went on strike, or that anything (gold, steel, adamantine, or diamonds) is a finite resource. It cares about draining your coin to produce item.

Adding these elements is tantamount to demanding PCs track every last spell component. Yes, its realistic, but you aren't fixing any inherent problems with the game balance by doing so. All your doing by saying "Jeez, the smith is tired and he's low on steel" is "I don't want you to do it, and therefore I'm finding excuses to stop it."

Which routes me back to "If the DM needs to keep finding excuses to stop the PCs from crafting Christmas trees, why allow crafting in the first place?" And we're back to 5e.

And bear in mind, there are two issues at work: PCs making whatever they want for themselves and NPCs crafting magical junk as a day job to sell. You've really solved neither. If the PC wants something and met the requirements in the rules, all your doing is yanking him around until he jumps through those hoops. If its an NPC, what does he care? His JOB is to make +1 swords! He is under no time constraints unless he's dead broke and starving. Either way, you've not fixed the "insert GP, get +1 sword" problem, you've at best delayed it, and at worst created a logistical nightmare of tracking steel, diamonds, mithral, and other crafting amounts, while attempting replicate a market economy which will ripple down the pipe. (Hey, Kendall Keep's smith said they were low on steel! Where are all these guards getting chain mail from? And why did Bluto buy his battle axe at normal PHB price?)

 

[DMCF]

Most players think to small. Imagine getting to a town with a small arena where there is slave trade going on. Then you build the ultimate sports bar complete with crystal balls to scry the battle from fixed points at each table for four. On several large shards you're running big screen games complete with commentary. In between matches you hire announcers to talk up the next match. Hot girls with numerous tentacles and even more breasts hold signs with round numbers and shimmy their way around the arena between rounds...You hire Dr. Clerics of Tempus, Krom, Odin etc. to heal up the battle weary.

It's like buying the setting for future campaigns. Sure you can buy a +5 long sword but will that character live on in infamy in future stories? Probably not. Will the guy with a kick ass sports bar with 5c wing night? Undoubtedly.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A setting with draconian legal restrictions on production of enchanted items probably also has restrictions on who is allowed to own weaponry. Bulletproof vests were mentioned up thread. You wind up in a campaign where either 1.) PCs are outlaws routinely violating ownership laws already (Shadowrun! and all that implies) or 2.) PCs are law enforcement personnel with the legal right to access restricted gear.

It's hard for me to imagine a middle ground wherein magic items are easily produced yet unavailable AND YET freelance wizard PCs are allowed to learn Fireball and you can freely buy plate armor.

The best way to make magic items rare is to make them hard to produce. Supply side econ I guess.

 

[SkidAce]

What materials? By RAW, you need five things: the proper feat (non-expendable), the proper spell(s) known (non-expendable), gold for nondescript "materials", time, and XP.

Since we are in the 5E forum, I though this may be relevant.

The creation of a magic item is a lengthy, expensive task. To start, a character must have a formula that describes the construction of the item. The character must also be a spellcaster with spell slots and must be able to cast any spells that the item can produce. Moreover, the character must meet a level minimum determined by the item's rarity, as shown in the Crafting Magic Items table. For example, a 3rd-level character could create a wand of magic missiles (an uncommon item), as long as the character has spell slots and can cast magic missile. That same character could make a +1 weapon (another uncommon item), no particular spell required. You can decide that certain items also require special materials or locations to be created. For example, a character might need alchemist's supplies to brew a
particular potion, or the formula for a flame tongue might require that the weapon be forged with lava.

1. formula
2. spellcaster with slots and spell
3. minimum level

DM can decide 4. special materials or locations. (which I would advertise in the formula)

 

[billd91]

Well now, we're getting into the micromanaging element. Yes, as a DM I can rule yes or no on any given item, but realistically, how often does a DM claim you (assuming you have coin and are some area with reasonable trade*) you can't buy plate armor? Heavy Crossbows? A boat (near a body of water)? 200 feet of rope? All of these things are just as susceptible to market flux, but few DMs I've ever seen care about supply and demand of goods.

Speaking of which, we're diving back into houserules, unless you want to show me the part in the DMG where it talks about resource scarcity. Otherwise, its the DM Cockatrice-blocking you.

Welcome to the GM's job. If it looks like something is going to be a detriment to the campaign now, that GM should be blocking it.

 

[MoonSong]

A setting with draconian legal restrictions on production of enchanted items probably also has restrictions on who is allowed to own weaponry. Bulletproof vests were mentioned up thread. You wind up in a campaign where either 1.) PCs are outlaws routinely violating ownership laws already (Shadowrun! and all that implies) or 2.) PCs are law enforcement personnel with the legal right to access restricted gear.

It's hard for me to imagine a middle ground wherein magic items are easily produced yet unavailable AND YET freelance wizard PCs are allowed to learn Fireball and you can freely buy plate armor.

The best way to make magic items rare is to make them hard to produce. Supply side econ I guess.

But what if I don't want to make magic items rare? To me a magic item you can use is more magical than one you have to go through hoops to get but never actually use.

 

[Remathilis]

Since we are in the 5E forum, I though this may be relevant.

1. formula
2. spellcaster with slots and spell
3. minimum level
DM can decide 4. special materials or locations. (which I would advertise in the formula)

There is little point to discussing 5e's crafting since its an optional rule in the DMG. The starting point is: "No". Then, it becomes "DM's choice, here are some guidelines". This is a far cry from 3e/4e, which puts the rules in the player's guide, assumed core and written in stone.

My point is that 5e's approach is far saner than 3e/4e's, but requires more DM judgement call. There are people however that the DMG rules aren't as concrete as the earlier ones, and thus unusable or inferior to the previous ones. My reply to that is, that the 3e/4e rules had lots of headaches that basically got fixed by houseruling crafting and item purchasing, and hoping you don't screw anything else up with it.

I'd rather see an additive system (like 5e) than have to subtract one (3e/4e).