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D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Thanks for posting those words in bold. Even so: producing books costs money, selling a license doesn't. WotC is already producing 5E books. They seem to be confident that profits on those books, along with the larger goal of keeping core books on the shelves by justifying them with minimal new releases, will cover/exceed their costs. Producing more than the current trickle, however, would mean increasing costs which may not be justified by the return. WotC doesn't have to do that analysis for a license.

Then maybe WotC should look at other industries that are doing exactly what they want to do.

Like the comic industry for example. They have a lot of licensed products including Movies and Lunchboxes and they also still produce their core Comic books as well as electronic versions of their comics.
 

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Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Nah, reception is based pretty much entirely on how much individual groups like the game. The vast majority of D&D players aren't on forums and never hear WotC's communications in the first place.

Yeah, the release schedule stuff that is so important to many on here is not even something that is even remotely thought about by my group. They are just "is this game fun to play". Which type is the majority? I'm guessing the people who aren't that interested in a 2 year release plan being available.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Hmmm You need to work that out with Hussar. He said Essentials was a new edition and new editions mean failure.
I'm not sure I agree, but you should ask him.
Every edition was a new edition, so every edition but the current one was a failure?

I don't feel a need to address that concern.

That said, 4E was on a downward slide.
And the evidence for that was it selling well, staying in first place and having a rapid pace of releases?

Yet 5e selling well, staying in first place, and having a slow pace of releases is troubling?

Sounds like 'borrowing trouble' to me.

I'm not sure that strong sales out of the gate for D&D mean anything.
They mean a new set of core books are out.

Agreed. Without a doubt.
Well, 1st RPG is never going away, so that aspect of the brand value is a pretty secure 'floor.' Mainstream name recognition isn't likely to disappear, either. So if we agree those are the main components of D&D's brand value, baseline brand value is pretty secure.

But that still leaves a ton of room for growing or shrinking sales and growing or shrinking brand value both within the niche market and within the popular culture.
The niche market is so small it doesn't matter to WotC, let alone 7.6 billion-dollar Hasbro, and in the mainstream, D&D has very little potential downside (no where much to go but up).

Another reason to be hopeful is that there's no real reason to think the TTRPG will pay some horrible price if a movie or MMO or whatever mainstream product fails. This time it's not the TTRPG line that's promising unrealistic revenue. And, the very fact that we don't have lots of vaporware in the pipeline means there won't be crushing disappointment, even if they do reflexively cut half of the remaining jobs dedicated to D&D development.


I think the bottom line is that, in stark contrast to the furor and strife of the preceding 6 years, 5e will probably represent a period of relative stability in D&Ds history.

Come to think of it, that might be a first.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
With no meaningful potential for growth in the RPG market ( from the little I've heard, it may even have contracted in the last 8 or 10 years - I recall a 2005 or 2007 or so estimate of 20-25 million, today IcV2 seems to think it's only 15).
ICv2 says the RPG market is growing. http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/30959/six-straight-growth-years-hobby-games

Seems like good news to me and trying to make money from it a good idea.

Do you have a link to the 15 million dollar figure?
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
The story where?
On the boards, in gaming stores.

Among folks whose primary hobby is playing D&D and other RPGs, yes definitely. BUT like I mentioned above, I don't think WotC is very interested in our demographic anymore. They needed for us not to be a problem at launch. Mission accomplished.
Yeah, turning your back on the demographics that supports you is not the best idea.

Even if you just want to sell an MMO or a boardgame, you still want people talking positively about your brand and product. The first customer of the boardgame and MMO will be RPG players. Those WotC doesn't want anymore, according to you.

What is interesting in your comment is that you think WotC doesn't want us anymore. I do not think that is there intended goal. Why would they want us to think that?

The relevant formula must be

X + (Y - Z) where

X = license revenues
Y = in-house revenues
Z = in-house expenses

Even if Y is more than Z, it doesn't matter if management is unwilling to fund Z. And that might make sense even if Y is more than Z. Y would have to be greater than Z by some factor in order to justify its budget being increased. I don't think it is hard to imagine Hasbro execs deciding WotC cannot achieve that kind of margin. I mean, WotC has even farmed out the D&D board games which appeared to be the most successful (or at least best received) aspect of 4E.

Meanwhile, X is self-justifying.

Yeah, no one is advocating losing money. Paizo release schedule would edicate that you can make money while having a big release schedule. I find the argument that RPGs are not profitable to not be backed up. According to ICv2, the market of RPGs is growing. http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/30959/six-straight-growth-years-hobby-games
 

Manchu

First Post
The kind of margin possible on TTRPG products is appealing to a much smaller company that only or principally produces TTRPG products ... like Paizo.

Could WotC make money on a busy 5E release schedule? Yeah I think it could. But is that margin wide enough to motivate a company like Hasbro to invest? Apparently not.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
ICv2 says the RPG market is growing. http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/30959/six-straight-growth-years-hobby-games

Seems like good news to me and trying to make money from it a good idea.

Do you have a link to the 15 million dollar figure?
Nope, followed a link someone left on another thread.

Board games have been growing (even I'm not so securely under a rock that I hadn't heard that), and I think Icv2 said that 'hobby games,' which include (and are dominated by) CCGs are growing...

Also 'are growing' isn't a statement about past growth or contraction. Like I said, I was remembering some insider guesstimate from maybe ten years ago, and noting they were supposedly a smaller market now. They could have shrunk, but be growing now. Maybe for a few years (since the end of the recession for instance) maybe just this quarter - maybe even just 'projected' to grow. *shrug*
 
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pemerton

Legend
If that's true, then why bother with supplements at all? Just bang out a new core set every 3-5 years and save your cash.
I assume there's some sort of feedback in play which means that the optimum profit point involves enough supplements to keep your core customers engaged and ready to pick up the next edition of core books.

Too few supplements and the core shrinks to the point where the money saved on no supplements is less than the loss incurred by lost sales of new corebooks. Too many supplements and you spent more money than you needed to, relative to the amount of extra new corebook sales you engendered.

Was it a successful launch? What metric do we have that says this?

<snip>

The fact that we do not know if more books are coming out after PotA might mean they are waiting see how it does before announcing other books. If it was a success, would they need to wait? We could just have one book out this year.
I think it was a successful launch. Besides the "cultural" factos [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] (and some others) point to - like the lack of edition-war-style reception, the good reviews, the anniversary feel-good factor, etc - there is also the sales information. Amazon rankings were the strongest ever, and strongly sustained. The IcV2 numbers are running D&D's way. The only information I've seen from store owners suggests they are selling lots of D&D books.

All this adds up to a strong launch. It's very hard for me to believe that it's not also a successful launch, because it is hard to see how, on any realistic projection, it could have been significantly better.

I don't see how the absence of additional announced books is relevant one way or the other. If WotC's experience tells it that supplements don't sell well enough to justify their cost of production, and (perhaps) in addition have an effect of dampening rather than boosting core sales in the medium to longer term (because creating a play environment that is hard for new customers to get into), then they won't make those supplements.

If the company was going to fold because it had nothing to do following its big initial product launch, then I agree it would make sense to question the strategy. But WotC seems to have plenty going on. Most of that is in the non-D&D divisions. But the D&D people also seem to have stuff they're doing, like overseeing boardgames, these semi-annual APs, the free stuff they're posting, handling Twitter traffic, etc.

you have not answered the question being asked which is: How does this current short term success continue without more support?
I agree that the reception was very positive... Up to January. The story shifted from how great 5e is to WotC's communications (or lack there of), their release schedule and lack of PDF/OGL/Digital stuff. From the looks of it, it will only get worse. Ultimately people will just move on at least communication aren't improved, as OGL is released or a release schedule, even anemic, is made public.
I'm not sure what "people will just move on" means. Most D&D players don't play other RPGs. People who have started playing with 5e, or who have picked up 5e as a sequel to AD&D, are not going to "move on".

They may or may not keep playing D&D - perhaps many will play on-and-off - but they will (or at least WotC hopes they will) retain fond memories of D&D, perhaps buy the occasional starter set as a birthday present for a kid in the family, and buy the socks, lunchboxes, movie tickets etc that become available.

From the point of view of a hardcore RPGer, "support" means product being produced for the game. But I think "support" in that sense is pretty orthogonal to supporting the brand.

And the absence of "support" in that sense doesn't mean that the company is floundering, or that the brand is in trouble. It mostly seems to mean that such stuff isn't commercially viable from WotC's point of view. Which is not really a shock, because they've been saying stuff along that line for a while.
 

Hussar

Legend
Note, just for clarity, I posited that Essentials was a "new edition" to avoid the pedantic wankery that follows trying to claim that it's not. It was just easier to use the terms set by others than try to aim for any sort of facts. IOW, those crowing 4e's demise make the claim that Essentials was a new edition and I simply preferred not to bog the thread down by disagreeing with them.

But, is anyone actually trying to claim that 3 or 4 new editions in what, 15 years, is a success? Having to sink millions of dollars into development every three years or so is completely worth the ROI brought in by the new edition? Boom and bust is bad business.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Nah, reception is based pretty much entirely on how much individual groups like the game. The vast majority of D&D players aren't on forums and never hear WotC's communications in the first place.
So what? We're RPG players. You had lots of people saying 4e sucked on boards and surprise, 4e tanked. A lot of people on boards were saying PF was great. Surprise, it did very well. We are a reflection of the gaming community.

Wizards has been perfectly communicative
Yeah, no.

Two adventure paths a year, and an accompanying player's companion with additional player's options.
The companion was cancelled. We have no idea if the next path will have one. We do not even know if they will release another path this year. None i announced. They could always cancel it like the splatbook was cancelled.

They've explicitly stated that they think the frenetic 3E and 4E release schedules were harmful to the game and that they're aiming for a slower release schedule with 5E.
Ok. So how about one book a month? Or one every two months? That is much slower than previous editions and much slower than Paizo who is making a buck with it frenetic release schedule.
How far out in advance do you want them to announce products, a full 12 months?
Why not? They did it before. 4e Ravenloft was announced during 2010's GenCon. It was supposed to be released during August of 2011 if I am not mistaken.

Paizo announces its products at least 6 months in advance. If not more. It isn't impossible for WotC either. We were aware of PotA in August of 2014 for a March 2015 release. 7 months in advance. It got push back by three weeks, but that stuf happens, no biggy.

Let's say they humor you, and give you the name of the second 2015 adventure path launching in October, and the May 2015 adventure path, both with accompanying Player Companion PDFs. Would you then agree that they've made their release schedule public?
May 2016? If they did it, it would let us know more. That is the gist of communications. Sharing information.

People still play 1E and 2E, dude, and it's been decades since those last saw official support. 5E will be just fine no matter how much product Wizards releases.
But will D&D be fine without a steady stream of income? Are licenses alone enough? That is what I'm asking. Can it sell stuff without good word of mouth? Bad word of mouth didn't help 4e.

My take is that Wizards sees exactly which way the wind is blowing and aren't going to invest in a moribund market.
Doesn't sound moribund when it is growing. http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/30959/six-straight-growth-years-hobby-games
 

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