D&D 5E What does 5E NEED

[Sacrosanct]

You kind of missed the point.

You said you needed "...more feats and subclasses to flesh out the most common archetypes." I assumed that was your point since that's what you actually said. And if we're talking about the most common archetypes, then 5e does that already. From your other statements, it seems that what you actually meant was that you wanted more feats and subclasses to fill your niche and/or highly specialized concepts. You can hardly blame me (or others) for missing the point when your point was something different than what you actually wrote.

Addressing your actual point, my suggestion would be to not hold your breath. 5e is not going to be like 3e with a ton of specialized feats and classes. It's not designed to be so. I for one would not want to see the feat/class bloat that plagued 3.x in 5e. And I have a suspicion that WoTC isn't going to take a business model where they put out all that material either. Splatbooks and fluff for small pockets of gamers isn't something I see them putting out any more. What I do see?

An Adventure Path that includes another variant of sorcerer, possibly a psionist, and additional specialties for clerics. And that's about it.

 

[GMMichael]

5e needs a certificate as an appendix:

"Be it known, that thou, the Player, and thou, the Dungeon Master, hast hereby all powers forthwith and presently, to concoct thine own classes, domains, subclasses, rules, spells, magickal accessories, backgrounds, and races necessary and desirable for thine own enjoyment of heretofore-presented game for the playing of roles. AND thou shalt need so such publickation that containeth afore said errata, which shall in the course of human events, be published anyway."

That might put some minds at ease.

 

[DEFCON 1]

That might put some minds at ease.

Yeah, like maybe three of them. Everyone else will still be freaking out if they aren't getting what they want when they want it and in the form they desire.

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah, like maybe three of them. Everyone else will still be freaking out if they aren't getting what they want when they want it and in the form they desire.

It's very easy to understate people's desire for something official that doesn't require them to homebrew, negotiate, and ask permission within the game.

Many people are gun-shy about looking like a munchkin by asking for special favors for their character concept.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It's very easy to understate people's desire for something official that doesn't require them to homebrew, negotiate, and ask permission within the game.

Many people are gun-shy about looking like a munchkin by asking for special favors for their character concept.

Those people should give their DMs a little more credit then. Or move to a different game if their DM is that much of a dick that they're afraid to negotiate.

But the real point of my joking response to DMMike is that it doesn't matter what or how many supplements WotC gives people with all manner of extra stuff to use... we're *still* going to be inundated with complaints by people who didn't get what they personally wanted. And they will continue to complain regardless of the amount of stuff that *is* given, and regardless of how unfeasible or unlikely what they want will actually ever come to pass because what they want is rather ridiculous and financially untenable.

Putting a big certificate like DMMike mentioned about giving DMs the right to create whatever they need would have just as much success as putting warnings on cigarette packs that say "Hey dummy, these things are going to kill you." All the people for whom the information would help will tend to completely ignore it.

 

[TwoSix]

Those people should give their DMs a little more credit then. Or move to a different game if their DM is that much of a dick that they're afraid to negotiate.

Not everyone feels strongly enough about it to make it an issue. And certainly not strong enough to abandon a game over it. More of a "Gosh, I wish there was a charm-based cleric, oh well, guess I'll play a light cleric instead."

But the real point of my joking response to DMMike is that it doesn't matter what or how many supplements WotC gives people with all manner of extra stuff to use... we're *still* going to be inundated with complaints by people who didn't get what they personally wanted. And they will continue to complain regardless of the amount of stuff that *is* given, and regardless of how unfeasible or unlikely what they want will actually ever come to pass because what they want is rather ridiculous and financially untenable.

That feels like making the perfect the enemy of the good. I agree we don't need 3e/4e levels of picayune feat choices, but opening up a few more broad categories of class archetypes, as well as further specializing some of the broad classes, isn't going to hurt anything. I mean, seriously, there's two (2!) sorcerer choices. That's an archetype that could support 6 or 7, no sweat.

 

[DEFCON 1]

That feels like making the perfect the enemy of the good. I agree we don't need 3e/4e levels of picayune feat choices, but opening up a few more broad categories of class archetypes, as well as further specializing some of the broad classes, isn't going to hurt anything. I mean, seriously, there's two (2!) sorcerer choices. That's an archetype that could support 6 or 7, no sweat.

Yeah... and as I pointed out in the new "let's complain about how WotC is handling the Sorcerer" thread that just sprung up... I mentioned that a Sorcerous Origin composes a mere 5 features-- only three of which (the two 1st level ones and a 6th level one) will be needed any time soon. So having a player and DM work together to create a new one is not exactly building the pyramids (should the player want one that wasn't a wild mage or draconic bloodline.) But apart from that... I also guarantee you that even if WotC produced the 6 or 7 origins that you mention... we'd have complaints about origins 8, 9, & 10 that weren't.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yep. The official slogan of D&D wasn't by accident. And it's no coincidence that it was the slogan chosen at the time when D&D skyrocketed in popularity.

 

[MoonSong]

Those people should give their DMs a little more credit then. Or move to a different game if their DM is that much of a dick that they're afraid to negotiate.

But the real point of my joking response to DMMike is that it doesn't matter what or how many supplements WotC gives people with all manner of extra stuff to use... we're *still* going to be inundated with complaints by people who didn't get what they personally wanted. And they will continue to complain regardless of the amount of stuff that *is* given, and regardless of how unfeasible or unlikely what they want will actually ever come to pass because what they want is rather ridiculous and financially untenable.

Putting a big certificate like DMMike mentioned about giving DMs the right to create whatever they need would have just as much success as putting warnings on cigarette packs that say "Hey dummy, these things are going to kill you." All the people for whom the information would help will tend to completely ignore it.

It is more the issue of not wanting to feel like you are getting special treatment, it "others" you and unless you are in a very trusting and friendly group it makes you feel like you don't really belong there. Faith in the DM overall isn't the issue. Though it can also contribute, I know enworld isn't representative of the whole DM population, but when the posters who say "trust your DM, do it yourself" are the same posters who actively decry my playstyle and easily pile it with powergaming and munchkinism you don't really get too much hope. Heck I've yet to find a DM who will allow me to start bard and go sorcerer -the easy patch to emulate a 3e sorcerer-, one all but called me a munchkin, and this is something in the PHB, now imagine if I went to this DM and asked "please allow me to play this homebrew cleric domain". The sad reality is that the DMs who get my playstyle are less likely to allow homebrew, and the ones who allow homebrew are the ones who actively censor it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It is more the issue of not wanting to feel like you are getting special treatment, it "others" you and unless you are in a very trusting and friendly group it makes you feel like you don't really belong there. Faith in the DM overall isn't the issue. Though it can also contribute, I know enworld isn't representative of the whole DM population, but when the posters who say "trust your DM, do it yourself" are the same posters who actively decry my playstyle and easily pile it with powergaming and munchkinism you don't really get too much hope. Heck I've yet to find a DM who will allow me to start bard and go sorcerer -the easy patch to emulate a 3e sorcerer-, one all but called me a munchkin, and this is something in the PHB, now imagine if I went to this DM and asked "please allow me to play this homebrew cleric domain". The sad reality is that the DMs who get my playstyle are less likely to allow homebrew, and the ones who allow homebrew are the ones who actively censor it.

Well, if you have had multiple DMs questioning (if not outright disallowing) your "playstyle"... I would wonder what exactly your playstyle is that is creating these reactions? Now, I have no doubt that you might very well play with some DMs that disallow multiclassing... and in that regard, sure, you aren't going to be able to recreate your 3E sorcerer (at least the weapon profs part). But if your DM *does* allow multiclassing... and you say to him or her "I want to start with 1 level of Bard before continuing on with Sorcerer because I'd like to have weapon and armor proficiencies-- since I'm trying to adapt my 3E sorcerer to 5E" what else is your playstyle advocating for that this fairly simple and innocuous request is getting denied? After all... that's usually the whole point of multiclassing-- taking two classes so that you get features from both to get the class you want.

I dunno... maybe you have just had a string of horrible luck in finding DMs... all of them just wanting to be a jerks and not allow you to take one level of bard before leveling a sorcerer... while also simultaneously allowing multiclassing to other people. But I have to imagine there has to be more to the story than just that? How many levels of bard did they want to you take before they allowed you to be a bard/sorcerer multiclass?