D&D 5E Convince me to keep reading Princes of the Apocalypse (*significant* spoilers. Also my players keep out)

[FormerlyHemlock]

I just felt that a new module should, ideally, not suffer from the problems that have been plaguing D&D for years and which other APs have managed to address. I certainly didn't expect to see these problems in an AP that was so well received.

Apparently it isn't well-received by simulationists. Thanks for the info, sounds like I should stay away too.

I think 5e makes this even more difficult because the power-levels scale so much less. 20 men-at-arms are actually a seriously powerful thing for quite a while (could take out an 8th level party in a fair fight I'd venture, where they'd be taken out by a 5th level party in 1st through 4th edition with little problem). So being the "only ones that can help" is harder to pull off in 5e. As such, I'd like to see them spend more effort on this, not less.

The John Ringo way is to kill off all the good guys (including all those men-at-arms) at the start of the campaign in some kind of huge disaster. Then you just need a way to keep the implosion slow enough that the PCs can manage to slow, and eventually reverse, it.

In short, 5E logic says that PCs mostly aren't needed in static settings, so the campaign should be a dynamic setting if you want there to be logical. In my game, the PCs are basically the only good guys above 3rd level in the whole setting, and the kingdom is currently facing down an invading army of 6000 hobgoblins (as well as various illithid cults, fire giant clans, vampire infestations, and neogi incursions) which would otherwise be dealt with by the friendly army of 8000 soldiers and one high-level wizard (12th level), if they weren't all dead. There's about 600 friendlies left and they're spread out all over the kingdom.

 

[graves3141]

In Kingmaker, you are founding a Kingdom in the middle of nowhere starting at a very low level. And the folks who got you started in this direction have plenty of problems of their own. There is literally no one around who has the available resources to provide much help (though you occasionally get a bit of reinforcements from "home" early on and there are merchants that can be reached with some effort, none of those can really go out and deal with problems).

In the true20 game I played, it's classic Cthulhu and early on no one in the world will believe you, and toward the end no one in the world is qualified to help much. (Though I did get to call in a few airstrikes, game-wise they had minimal impact).

In the Red Hand of Doom you are more-or-less in the middle of nowhere and _you_ are, in effect, the called-in reinforcements. The nearest local town is busy defending itself (and you help). Toward the end you are among the most powerful folks in the area.

I think 5e makes this even more difficult because the power-levels scale so much less. 20 men-at-arms are actually a seriously powerful thing for quite a while (could take out an 8th level party in a fair fight I'd venture, where they'd be taken out by a 5th level party in 1st through 4th edition with little problem). So being the "only ones that can help" is harder to pull off in 5e. As such, I'd like to see them spend more effort on this, not less.

But, as I said, I'll probably just redo the fluff and put this in the middle of no where if I run it at all.

I see what you're saying, but I personally don't see it as an issue. I mean, no hero worth his salt is going to go running for help if he can save the day himself. If that's the case, then why bother playing the game?

I could be wrong, but I don't think most DMs will see the proximity of Red Larch to Waterdeep to be a big deal.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Apparently it isn't well-received by simulationists. Thanks for the info, sounds like I should stay away too.

D&D itself really isn't a good game to play for simulationists, regardless of the adventure.

 

[Mercule]

I don't think this has any actual spoilers more specific than "Hey, Elemental Evil!" So, I'll skip the sblock.

The module actually includes background that says, in a nutshell, something stirred in the area about six months ago and started drawing things to the general vicinity. It's generally subtle, even for the prophets, but it's a thing. The module also doesn't belabor the point, so you may have missed it.

IMO, six months is just the right amount of time for the trouble to settle in and get passably organized, but not excessively so. It's also just the right amount of time for the locals to start saying, "Ya know, it sure seems like we've had a lot of bandits and other weird stuff going on, lately," but not start freaking out about it (c'mon, it's a D&D world, weird is relative). The water is getting warm, but no frogs have boiled, yet.

 

[Derren]

I mean, no hero worth his salt is going to go running for help if he can save the day himself.

Why not?
Not every player puts such gamist considerations first and instead lets his character handle in character which includes getting help from whatever authority available.

 

[graves3141]

Why not?
Not every player puts such gamist considerations first and instead lets his character handle in character which includes getting help from whatever authority available.

People can play however they want. I just have a hard time seeing Conan running to a nearby town to get help instead of trying to deal with it himself.

EDIT: Also, I think we can assume that PotA is written for a small group of PCs to be able to handle. So, they should be the one's saving the day.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

D&D itself really isn't a good game to play for simulationists, regardless of the adventure.

That's actually not true.

 

[GameOgre]

Why not?
Not every player puts such gamist considerations first and instead lets his character handle in character which includes getting help from whatever authority available.

Because you have to give up the exp that is why.

as a player, keep your soulless npc's away from my loot and exp! THAT is why.

Nothing worse than a epic breakout of evil and 50,000 npc ride in on their Dragon mounts and burn everything to the ground. Yeah thanks for that,NOT!

Don't care about realism I am not here playing this game on my day off to watch the Waterdeep guard save the day.

 

[HobbitFan]

Brehobit, I'd advise reading all the way through the adventure and then trying to think of things with both your DM and Players hats on, so to speak.
I think there's a lot to like in this adventure BUT it's largely a sandbox and so requires alot of DM work to run smoothly.

Here's some stuff I'm trroubleshooting/expanding:
1. Give NPCs at Red Larch character and depth so that the players care about them. Very important.
2. Introduce faction NPcs so that players know they have aid if needed and that other frinedly groups ar at play in region too. Also brainstorm on how the faction and faction leaders will react to what the bad guys are doing...
3. Introudce more red herrings so that its not quite so co-incidental that the sites the party investigates ALSO happen to be fronts for cult activity. The players initially should be investigating weird rumors and hunting down missing NPCs THEN discovering the cult angle. Becuase its a snadbox presentation of this can get a bit confused so its a good thing to keep in mind.
4. Figure out what the Elder Elemental Eye is and what its is trying to do. The adventure doesn't say so you will have to. Its kinda immaterial because the Elemntal Cults are the real bad guys but its still kinda frustrating.
5. the Adventurers (the module says they were called the Knights of the Silver Horn) that fought the Elemntal Cults back in the day and built the castles now known as the Haunted Keeps. come up with who these guys were and what they did back in the day. You just have to remember that all this was back @900 DR and that the present date is 1491 DR. It might be cool to have 1 of your PCs be related to a member of the that old adventures group or related to one of their dependents...
6. I'd think seriously about moving some of the cults so that all 4 aren't all in the same megadungeon. Vary up the locations so that the players aren't coming back to the same dungeon session after session. Flavor and variety is a good thing.
7. If in the end the Players fight one of the elemental Princes on their plane, come up with cool ideas for what their Palace on their plane will lookk and play like. The game holds it up as a possibility when fighting them but doesn't give any detail. Plan for it in case it does. Remember that the weapon of each Prophet is key to closing the Elemental portals the Princes may come through. This is vital information that the players have to figure out/be given.
8. Introudce ways for the players to deduce/descover/uncover cult background and history. As written, players will be getting this from the Dragon in chapter 6 or from coversations with cult members themelves or invetgaitng cult areas. You need to have an alternate means of presenting this material. How will the Pcs figure out history of the dwarf ruins, the haunted keeps or the cult backstory? One way would be in the books of the dwarf sage Bruldenthar which they encounter as clues throughout the adventure wnd who they can finally rescue. Also I'd think about rewriting the cult attack on the delegation so that it was more targeted and that the faction NPCs were going to a meeting discussing the cult threat.

Lots more to think about but that's it for now...

 

[Jester David]

I see what you're saying, but I personally don't see it as an issue. I mean, no hero worth his salt is going to go running for help if he can save the day himself. If that's the case, then why bother playing the game?

I could be wrong, but I don't think most DMs will see the proximity of Red Larch to Waterdeep to be a big deal.

Going for help is one of those "maybe" problems. When reading a published adventure it is super easy to get hung up on those.
"What if the PCs go for help?" "What if the PCs join the cult?" "What if the PCs go off in the other direction seeking treasure?"

Well.... what if they don't?

They might decide to skip going for help, follow the rails tighter than expected, grab all the hooks, and generally avoid the potential problems.

Going for help is a potential problem, like the PCs doing anything else unexpected in an adventure. Sometimes that means the DM has to improv or completely change the story. If the party goes to Waterdeep or Neverwinter, maybe they find cultists there influencing affairs. Or the lords are busy with another more local issue (that seems more pressing to them).
Or, as the DM, you just say "okay, everyone show up next week with a new character that's one level higher. We're now playing the people the Masked Lords of Waterdeep sent to investigate."

Sometimes the most fun happens when the PCs jump the rails.