D&D 5E Convince me to keep reading Princes of the Apocalypse (*significant* spoilers. Also my players keep out)

[SilverfireSage]

I'm far more impressed with the story that ran through all six modules of Rise of the Runelords. The two are not even comparable. Princes of the Apoclypse is a pale shadow compared to Runelords. It's the differences in inspiration that matter to me. I don't run modules as they are written. I like modules that give me lots of scenarios and bits of information for doing something I haven't seen done in adventures before. Princes of the Apocalypse doesn't do that for me. It feels like a rehash of old adventures that were much better. I ran Temple of Elemental Evil four or five times there was so much to do. I had a blast. That's why I loved Runelords.

Each module in Runelords just gave huge bits of fun for a DM to play.

The flying quasit battle at the end of the underground temple in the first module was highly memorable. It was one of the first times a quasit caused such pain to a party. The background with the female aasimar and the trapped barghest was very cool. Here was a low level demon being used as a hidden ancient evil in an ancient ruins in a very interesting fashion.

The second module with the mystery with the serial killer cult and the haunted house was huge fun. The descriptive text for the haunts got my imagination going strong. I made the haunted house memorable. The serial killer interactions I had a blast with. I was able to make the killer particularly vile.

Then you had Texas Chainsaw Massacre/Deliverance with Ogres. How can you not have fun with that? The banjo music was strong in the third module.

The third module was followed by a mini-Against the Giants scenario with a natural disaster movie and sunken riverboat mystery involving a beautiful woman as subplots.

To summarize, Princes of the Apocalypse doesn't offer me as much inspiration to make things interesting as Rise of the Runelords or even the original Temple of Elemental Evil. When I look at a module, I want the module to inspire me to run it and do creative things while doing so. It seems like a very basic module with encounters in a small area based on a rehashed idea WotC has trotted out in nearly every edition due to the popularity of the original Temple of Elemental Evil. It's not inspiring me to run it.

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See and this is the same complaint I have with Runelords that you seem to have with PotA: The whole adventure just seems disjointed and random. You go one place, totally new theme, you go to another place, totally new theme. It doesn't really expand naturally like Apocalypse does, in the sense that you're in this area and as you progress naturally, gaining clues, exploring more areas, the full influence of the cult becomes known to you. I honestly don't remember how the Deliverance Ogres tied into the main plot whatsoever. Sure, that part itself was fun, but it could have been a side adventure, or something we played because one of the other people in the party couldn't make it that day. Even the side adventures in PotA tie in to the cult because Elemental Evil is freaking everywhere in the valley. Besides, I think there are plenty of creative things in the campaign.

[sblock]The halfling farm corrupted by the Earth Cult that is tasked with killing you, only to accidentally awaken a Revenant with their plan to lure you in. Stopping some thieves from selling a devastation orb in a race against time. Playing the ettin against itself by stealing rum from one of it's heads stashes and blaming the other. The air prophet "force choking" people with an invisible stalker.[/sblock]

There's a bunch of cool, inspiring things in here. Just because its about a topic that's been done before doesn't make it less interesting.

 

[TwoSix]

There's a bunch of cool, inspiring things in here. Just because its about a topic that's been done before doesn't make it less interesting.

Not to mention that there are plenty of people who have never done it before. (raises hand) I think part of the mission statement of 5e is to present as pure a distillation of classic D&D as possible, so it makes sense for them to repurpose classic adventure tropes. The downside, of course, is that it will be less inspiring for long-term players with no interest in a nostalgic lookback.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

It's not even that similar to the original temple.

 

[Jester David]

The disproportionate amount of bad was all tied to the same source. That is why it made sense. It wasn't a bunch of random encounters thrown into an area. It was a very focused cause and effect relationship that tied everything together in a manner I don't see in Princes of the Apocalypse.

You mean like how the bunyip, asylum, and giant crab all tied directly into the story? Or how the entire first module is pretty much unrelated to the main plot.

Rise of the Runelords was excellent. I would run it again in a heartbeat. But there was a *lot* of filer encounters and experience padding. It did an excellent job justifying most of the creatures, but most of the time that justification added nothing. There's no way for the PCs to discover the source of the entombed shadows of faceless stalkers and discover they're somewhat tied to the story.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Plus pretty much everything in Princes is related. So I don't get how that is a complaint.

 

[Celtavian]

See and this is the same complaint I have with Runelords that you seem to have with PotA: The whole adventure just seems disjointed and random. You go one place, totally new theme, you go to another place, totally new theme. It doesn't really expand naturally like Apocalypse does, in the sense that you're in this area and as you progress naturally, gaining clues, exploring more areas, the full influence of the cult becomes known to you. I honestly don't remember how the Deliverance Ogres tied into the main plot whatsoever. Sure, that part itself was fun, but it could have been a side adventure, or something we played because one of the other people in the party couldn't make it that day. Even the side adventures in PotA tie in to the cult because Elemental Evil is freaking everywhere in the valley. Besides, I think there are plenty of creative things in the campaign.

[sblock]The halfling farm corrupted by the Earth Cult that is tasked with killing you, only to accidentally awaken a Revenant with their plan to lure you in. Stopping some thieves from selling a devastation orb in a race against time. Playing the ettin against itself by stealing rum from one of it's heads stashes and blaming the other. The air prophet "force choking" people with an invisible stalker.[/sblock]

There's a bunch of cool, inspiring things in here. Just because its about a topic that's been done before doesn't make it less interesting.

Why doesn't repetition make it less interesting? If something has been done five times, I find it less interesting. Why not go with the original that was done very well to begin with? Perhaps the difference is I found Saw to be an interesting movie, but Saw 5 not so much. Elemental Evil has been hashed and rehashed. Where are the new ideas?

I don't think PotA is disjointed or random. I think it is uninspiring and boring.

Rise of the Runelords progressed naturally. It's not a debate. It all tied together in a neat package providing progressive clues that lead from one place to another. The Sihedron Symbol was as important in the first module as it was in the last module. The mystery you started culminated in the last module.

At the end of he day it comes down to personal taste as to what you might enjoy. But objectively Rise of the Runelords is a better adventure tale as far as design, coherence, depth of material, variation, interesting villains, settings, and just about everything that goes into a module. The level of detail of each isn't comparable. I read Rise of the Runelords as much for the fluffy bits as I did for the crunch. The story in each module was interesting and plentiful.

In these new WotC modules, people are being told to "not skim over" this small piece of information that explains why something is occurring. You don't hear that in a module like Rise of the Runelords because it was impossible to skim over the background material for each module. The background material is as important to Paizo as the crunchy rule bits. They carefully craft backgrounds for their modules, NPCs, and set pieces to make them interesting. It is from that material that I draw inspiration. It has been light in these new modules.

Not sure why we're debating this since if I were take Princes of the Apocalypse and Rise of the Runelords and pull from each the story information present, I would have far more to work with in Rise of the Runelords.


[sblock]The halfling farm corrupted by the Earth Cult that is tasked with killing you, only to accidentally awaken a Revenant with their plan to lure you in. Stopping some thieves from selling a devastation orb in a race against time. Playing the ettin against itself by stealing rum from one of it's heads stashes and blaming the other. The air prophet "force choking" people with an invisible stalker.[/sblock]

I don't find much of that inspiring. What I do find inspiring is a serial killer carving a strange rune into the chests of people and the PCs having to figure out why. I find inspiring a group of degenerate ogres that have turned a keep into a slaughterhouse interesting. I find an ancient hidden evil that whispers through the walls interesting. I find a haunted house with the strange impressions of its occupants left upon it, each tied to a historical cruelty in the house interesting. I can do a lot with the background information on the serial killer, the ogres, the haunted house, and the ancient temple.

The stuff you listed is an encounter, not history. Why am I going to trick something the party can kill? Why am I going to worry about a trick the party will quickly figure out and kill? Nothing in there compares to haunts. That was an ingenious addition to the rules. Did you not do the haunts justice? Or modify the haunt rules so paladins didn't shrug at them? I did. I made that whole house an interesting encounter.

We have very different tastes I imagine. I found Rise of the Runelords a smorgasbord of inspiring material that suited my tastes. Probably because I greatly enjoyed the source material it came from. I enjoy serial killer movies, thus I enjoyed running an NPC serial killer. I enjoyed Deliverance,The Hills have Eyes, and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, thus I enjoyed running a deviant hillbilly ogre family. Against the Giants is one of my favorite modules of all time like many others. I liked that the standard humanoid tribe attack had a very interesting motivating force behind it that involved vengeance versus the standard reasons for raiding. A humanoid raid being used to exact vengeance by sacrificing the entire town was a cool reason for the attack.

That's ok. That's why they make so much stuff, so each person can find something that interests them. Princes of the Apocalypse doesn't do it for me. I hope you enjoy running it. Sounds like it was made for your tastes.

 

[DongMaster]

Plus pretty much everything in Princes is related. So I don't get how that is a complaint.

It is posted on the internet, that's why!

 

[Celtavian]

You mean like how the bunyip, asylum, and giant crab all tied directly into the story? Or how the entire first module is pretty much unrelated to the main plot.

I'll give you the bunyip.

The asylum tied directly into the story. You had to go to the asylum to figure out what was going on with the serial killer. It was a major clue in the second module.

The first module definitely tied into the story. That is why you revisit the same hidden temple in module five. The finding of the underground temple in the first module was of vital importance. The clues in the goblin lair seemed unrelated at first, but were subtle clues to be recalled later on. I consider it similar to a writer having antagonist deal with a seemingly unrelated problem that eventually ties into the plot later. The first module set the plate for the rest of it. There were key parts of it that tied in like the runewell and the sihedron amulet that played parts later on.

Rise of the Runelords was excellent. I would run it again in a heartbeat. But there was a *lot* of filer encounters and experience padding. It did an excellent job justifying most of the creatures, but most of the time that justification added nothing. There's no way for the PCs to discover the source of the entombed shadows of faceless stalkers and discover they're somewhat tied to the story.

I agree.

The original Temple of Elemental Evil was huge fun as well. I'm still hoping at some point they take some of their classic modules and update them for 5E without changing much at all. D&D has a ton of classic modules that if updated would sell. I never understood why WotC didn't hire a guy whose sole job was to update modules to 5E (or whatever new edition) for re-release. I'd love to run Against the Giants or Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth for 5E. I'd pay for updated versions of classic modules.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Why doesn't repetition make it less interesting? If something has been done five times, I find it less interesting. Why not go with the original that was done very well to begin with? Perhaps the difference is I found Saw to be an interesting movie, but Saw 5 not so much. Elemental Evil has been hashed and rehashed. Where are the new ideas?

This is the same argument for new Nintendo games or new Star Wars games. But there are two simple reasons for this: 1. Most people that are playing the game now, have likely not played the old ones. New generations start to play, old players start to wax poetic of the old stuff. 2. Just because it's old material, doesn't mean new ideas can't arise from it. I'm sure people still find Dragons exciting enemies to fight, along with goblins and orcs, even though they've been done thousands of times in the past.

I don't think PotA is disjointed or random. I think it is uninspiring and boring.

Rise of the Runelords progressed naturally. It's not a debate. It all tied together in a neat package providing progressive clues that lead from one place to another. The Sihedron Symbol was as important in the first module as it was in the last module. The mystery you started culminated in the last module.

I don't see why that can't be a debate. I didn't find that it progressed naturally. There were clear demarcations where one adventure started and the other began. Sure, the Sihedron Symbol kept popping up, but just that one thing didn't make the whole thing feel cohesive. Although at this point it may seem like I didn't like RotR, I really did. I just felt some of the progression could have been more natural, and ended up feeling a little forced.

At the end of he day it comes down to personal taste as to what you might enjoy. But objectively Rise of the Runelords is a better adventure tale as far as design, coherence, depth of material, variation, interesting villains, settings, and just about everything that goes into a module.

There really can't be a discussion after points like that. Something cannot be both objectively and subjectively better in all ways. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[SilverfireSage]

The original Temple of Elemental Evil was huge fun as well. I'm still hoping at some point they take some of their classic modules and update them for 5E without changing much at all. D&D has a ton of classic modules that if updated would sell. I never understood why WotC didn't hire a guy whose sole job was to update modules to 5E (or whatever new edition) for re-release. I'd love to run Against the Giants or Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth for 5E. I'd pay for updated versions of classic modules.

Wait a second. You complain that this entirely new story is too derivative and unimaginative, but you want them to update the old modules and just print those? How does that make any sense?