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D&D 5E Would you change a monster's hit points mid-fight?

I think at some point many people forget that RPGs are really just a game of pretend with rules to make us feel less "immature."

If I as the DM can decide that my 2nd level party have stumbled on a cave with a 24th level red dragon inside that easily wipes the party with one breath attack, I am in no way playing a game nor am I being unfair.

I am being a real donk and a bad DM, but that's different.
 

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What have observable effects got to do with anything? Luke Crane isn't denying that GMs can lie to their players - he's making a point about values, not observable effects (ie if the players "win" because the GM fudged then they don't own the victory in the way they believe that they do).

As to whether its hyperbolic - what's the point of skilled play if the GM takes steps to negate the importance of skill?

Observable effect has everything to do with it. Does it really take away their sense of accomplishment if the DM fudges even a single die roll or a monster hit point total or changes an element written down that no longer seems appropriate at game time or denies the NPC a saving throw when he normally should get one? I doubt most players have a sense of accomplishment that fragile.

And, to repeat myself, how is it fudging to validate the importance of skilled play any more negating than a random trial or series of random trials that, despite preparations, may deny them success? Doesn't that also negate the importance of skill since, based on the die roll, the skill had no actual effect? Frankly, I'd rather have a DM ignore a rolled failure if my plan was good rather than be stymied, after a substantial amount of prep, simply because I "rolled poorly".
 
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If I make something up now and it turns out in a couple of weeks to have been the wrong thing to do (too strong a monster or whatever) killing the entire party because that's the world I made up is just silly, to me, though in a weird way I respect your choices, wrong as they may be in my own approach.
This is a point where the contrast between content introduction and action resolution becomes highly salient - the distinction that Gygax draws in his DMG when discussing wandering monster rolls.

If the monster would be too tough, you can not use it, or you can tone it down before you bring it into the game.

But there are also relevant questions about why the PCs are in combat with the monster in the first place. In classic dungeon crawling, the PCs are expected to scout the dungeon, identify targets and then return and hit them (see Gygax's advice to players in the closing pages of his PHB prior to the Appendices). If it turns out the PCs bit off more than they can chew, that's their lookout!

This is why Gygax particularly focuses on wandering monsters - because while the players can control the frequency of wandering monster rolls relative to their activities (by proper use of time, sensible precautions around noise and light, etc) the ultimate determiner of what wanderers they encounter is the GM's dice rolls. It's not all on them. Hence the need for a GM to use some judgment in the context of wanderers.

how is it fudging to validate the importance of skilled play any more negating than a random trial or series of random trials that, despite preparations, may deny them success? Doesn't that also negate the importance of skill since, based on the die roll, the skill had no actual effect?
Fudging doesn't erode the players' responsibility any more than taking the random result, which may do little to validate the good plans and tactics of the players.
If random results don't validate the players' good plans and tactics, then the game has perhaps been misdesigned as a game of skill!

Conversely, if the game is one in which luck can play a role then for some players of the game taking good or back luck on the chin is part of being a good sport.

If the game breaks down when the random factors that it calls for are applied at face value, then I'm with Luke Crane - the designer shouldn't have put those random rolls it the game.

For instance, if the game is meant to be one in which (i) luck plays a role, and (ii) PCs survive and prosper despite period exposure to deadly violence, then why not give the players the power to offset the consequences of bad luck rather than the GM (eg via a fate point system)? Then the players get to make the choices about what costs to bear, what consequences to offset, etc.

Frankly, I'd rather have a DM ignore a rolled failure if my plan was good rather than be stymied, after a substantial amount of prep, simply because I "rolled poorly".
If the plan is good, then why are the dice being rolled? Why do the rules call for randomness if the players don't want it and the GM is going to override it?

The solution to this problem is not GM fudging, in my view - it's getting better rules, that only call for rolls when the table is ready to accept the random outcome.

Skilled play isn't negated by fudging, it is actually facilitated by it, especially if through excellent play the PCs do everything exactly right but all end up dead because the DM rolls too many naturals 20s in a row.
In Gygax's case, he deals with this sort of situation by suggesting that rather than death the outcome be unconsciousness/maiming.

In my own games (which aren't run Gygax style, but which don't involve fudging) I handle this via fail forward (and Gygax's idea of maiming rather than death can be seen as an early attempt at implementing the same general approach). So if the dice yield a "TPK", the PCs regain consciousness in a dungeon (having been dropped unconscious rather than killed, which is an option for 0 hp in both 4e and 5e).

This another example of changing the rules to make randomness play the desired role in the game, rather than using rules that say one thing but then having the GM fudge things to make the outcome in play a different thing.

There are numerous things a DM does in a game that are for the best of the game, from encounter design to the distribution of rewards for challenges that players aren't privy to, how is overruling a die roll any different? It isn't.
As I've already posted upthread, this is dependent on playstyle.

For some playstyles - Gygaxian skilled play is an example, but not the only one - there is a big difference between introducing content into the game, and resolving declared actions. I also don't understand why you say that players aren't privy to the distribution of rewards for challenges. In plenty of D&D games the rules for distributing XP are quite transparent, and in some 4e games the rules for placing treasure likewise.

I think at some point many people forget that RPGs are really just a game of pretend with rules to make us feel less "immature."

If I as the DM can decide that my 2nd level party have stumbled on a cave with a 24th level red dragon inside that easily wipes the party with one breath attack, I am in no way playing a game nor am I being unfair.
This might be true for your approach to the game, but I don't think it generalises.

When I GM a game I am a player, bound by rules and guidelines like everyone else. And I can do things that are unfair (just as a referee can do things that are unfair), though in my own case I try to avoid doing so!
 

Observable effect has everything to do with it. Does it really take away their sense of accomplishment if the DM fudges even a single die roll or a monster hit point total or changes an element written down that no longer seems appropriate at game time or denies the NPC a saving throw when he normally should get one? I doubt most players have a sense of accomplishment that fragile.
Luke Crane didn't say that fudging would take away the sense of accomplishment. He is not making a claim about human psychology.

He said he would take away "all that" ie the foundations for the sense of accomplishment: the "hell and death" that they went through "to survive long enough to level", "their own stories about how certain scenarios played out", the "clever strategems" that they developed "to solve the puzzles and defeat the opposition."

He is making a claim about values and the point of playing.

Some friendships will survive minor acts of betrayal. This is a fact about human psychology. (And I know it to be true from my own experiences.) That doesn't mean that minor acts of betrayal are consistent with the point and values of friendship. They are at odds with it! Luke Crane is making the corresponding point about his play of Moldvay Basic: that when the point of the game is to go through hell and death and survive long enough to level, is to develop your own clever strategems, and is thereby to create your own stories about how certain scenarios played out, GM fudging is directly and fundamentally at odds with that point.
 

Couple of very quick points.

If I make something up now and it turns out in a couple of weeks to have been the wrong thing to do (too strong a monster or whatever) killing the entire party because that's the world I made up is just silly, to me, though in a weird way I respect your choices, wrong as they may be in my own approach.

Skilled play isn't negated by fudging, it is actually facilitated by it, especially if through excellent play the PCs do everything exactly right but all end up dead because the DM rolls too many naturals 20s in a row. (I've done this, where the unaltered results would have killed several players who actually made the best choices.)

It seems pretty clear that we're all going to have to agree to disagree, but I would urge the few that have expressed taking offence to remember we're discussing the playing of a game.

I agree. I know most players will appreciate the game going on.
 
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If the game breaks down when the random factors that it calls for are applied at face value, then I'm with Luke Crane - the designer shouldn't have put those random rolls it the game.

<snip>

If the plan is good, then why are the dice being rolled? Why do the rules call for randomness if the players don't want it and the GM is going to override it?

The solution to this problem is not GM fudging, in my view - it's getting better rules, that only call for rolls when the table is ready to accept the random outcome.

The problem here is that in many cases, even most cases, the random factor is as appropriate as any other mechanic. Trying to design all the random factors away for specific issues that may come up at the table is never going to be a completely successful task. It's an impossible expectation. This is one reason RPGs rely on game masters - to make the decision for their own tables for situations that the game designers couldn't predict or exhaustively include.

If the solution is a rule set that only calls for rolls when the players are ready to accept a random outcome - we really already have such things embodied in RPGs that acknowledge a GM's power to overrule the rules - and that includes D&D.
 


Pfft. They don't really apply to "classic, dungeon-crawl style" D&D either. The whole idea that fudging a die "takes all that away" is simply hyperbolic. It's a preference statement rather than a real, observable effect. Just more badwrongfunism.

Everything depends on the type of game all the participants have agreed to play. Using a movie analogy, if someone was really excited to see movie A and their friend proposed going to see movie A ,but then at the theater got tickets for movie B instead without consulting or informing their friend, that would be ok?

If the person who wanted to see movie A just wanted an evening at the movies it might be alright, but if the only reason he/she was bothering to go to the theater at all was for movie A and the friend who bought the tickets KNEW that, it would be a dick move.

The same applies to gaming. Be honest with people about the kind of game you want to run and if it doesn't sound like fun to them then find players who it WOULD be fun for.

There is no wrong way to run the D&D game.

Assuming all participants are on board with how the game is being conducted, nope, no wrong way at all.

Who said it's a case of fudging to save the players when they didn't plan well? Maybe they did plan well and the random results didn't turn out in their favor. Fudging doesn't erode the players' responsibility any more than taking the random result, which may do little to validate the good plans and tactics of the players.

There are numerous things a DM does in a game that are for the best of the game, from encounter design to the distribution of rewards for challenges that players aren't privy to, how is overruling a die roll any different? It isn't. And trying to compare this to domestic spying is pretty far-fetched and encroaching on topics frowned on here at ENWorld.

The key with not fudging is that it is indeed a GAME and sometimes good planning is enough to win the day and sometimes the dice just HATE you and your plans get done in by the fickle finger of fate. The same can happen in the opposite instance; your plans are half baked and by all rights your entire party should be monster poop, but somehow the dice were hot and the day was won.

For those that enjoy this play style, not knowing if either of these are going to happen (for players or the DM), is part of the fun. As a DM I would be bored to death if I nudged outcomes toward a certain desired state. Since I do all the prep, and know what is going on behind the scenes, the unpredictability of play is what keeps me coming back for more.

Observable effect has everything to do with it. Does it really take away their sense of accomplishment if the DM fudges even a single die roll or a monster hit point total or changes an element written down that no longer seems appropriate at game time or denies the NPC a saving throw when he normally should get one? I doubt most players have a sense of accomplishment that fragile.

And, to repeat myself, how is it fudging to validate the importance of skilled play any more negating than a random trial or series of random trials that, despite preparations, may deny them success? Doesn't that also negate the importance of skill since, based on the die roll, the skill had no actual effect? Frankly, I'd rather have a DM ignore a rolled failure if my plan was good rather than be stymied, after a substantial amount of prep, simply because I "rolled poorly".

A skilled DM factors in players plans BEFORE the odds of success are determined. If the plan is literally foolproof in a given instance there is nothing wrong with declaring the odds of success at 100% and just describing how well the plan worked. That isn't cheating.

The DM determines when the dice are rolled and what the odds of success are. A fair game means that once those odds are set and the die is cast, the result is the result. If you find the dice deciding things is too arbitrary then its time to put a bit more thought into factors being used to determine those odds. The rules can only provide a framework. It is still up to the DM to provide real time situational data that could impact the odds of a given die roll.

Simply put, if the dice could produce a result that is unacceptable-DON'T ROLL THEM.
 

A skilled DM factors in players plans BEFORE the odds of success are determined. If the plan is literally foolproof in a given instance there is nothing wrong with declaring the odds of success at 100% and just describing how well the plan worked. That isn't cheating.

The DM determines when the dice are rolled and what the odds of success are. A fair game means that once those odds are set and the die is cast, the result is the result. If you find the dice deciding things is too arbitrary then its time to put a bit more thought into factors being used to determine those odds. The rules can only provide a framework. It is still up to the DM to provide real time situational data that could impact the odds of a given die roll.

Simply put, if the dice could produce a result that is unacceptable-DON'T ROLL THEM.

You may notice here that, by skipping die rolling in many cases, you're already situationally fudging the rules. Maybe you're deciding the NPC's saving throw should fail, so you deny giving him the one he's due by the rules. At this point, what's really the difference between rolling and fudging the result and not rolling? I don't see a significant one. The rules have already been changed away from their initial fairness assumption in favor of the DM's situational adjudication. It's no fairer or purer a game to decide to skip a rule and not roll and to roll and decide to disregard some of the results that are possible should they come up.
 

You may notice here that, by skipping die rolling in many cases, you're already situationally fudging the rules. Maybe you're deciding the NPC's saving throw should fail, so you deny giving him the one he's due by the rules. At this point, what's really the difference between rolling and fudging the result and not rolling? I don't see a significant one. The rules have already been changed away from their initial fairness assumption in favor of the DM's situational adjudication. It's no fairer or purer a game to decide to skip a rule and not roll and to roll and decide to disregard some of the results that are possible should they come up.

It is different and it matters. It is the difference between understanding how rule 0 works and cheating.

As an example, I was once running a dungeon in 3E. By the rules, a rogue gets to reduce damage on REF save to 0 with a successful save via evasion. An instance came up of a fireball going off while the rogue was in the center of a long 5' wide corridor. I ruled no REF save was possible as there was no place to enable evasion. That would have been the case for anyone in that corridor, PC or NPC.

So what if you were playing the rogue and the DM told you to make your save, and you make it- THEN you are told that you can't evade and take the damage anyway. What would be more upsetting?

Not every assignment of odds is fudging the rules. The rules don't cover everything. The reasons for skipping a roll are numerous. Player ingenuity or thoughtlessness is not built into the rules. It is up to the DM to see that those factors matter.


EDIT: Of course if players have signed on to a game knowing that die rolls can be changed for dramatic purposes then there isn't any badwrongfun going on at all.
 
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