D&D 5E I think WotC has it backwards (re: story arcs)

[delericho]

Don't know, that's why I asked

Ah, I see. As far as I know, it's correct to say DD 1&2 didn't sell particularly well. However, those sales probably suffered both from them being 4e (which was itself divisive) and also because WotC's reputation for published adventures was pretty bad, especially back at the start of the 4e era.

Plus, of course, they were using the Delve format for their adventures, sharply reducing the amount of content possible in the page count.

 

[Mercule]

As I do not play MMO's, could you elaborate?

In World of Warcraft, at least, a "dungeon" is a small-ish group activity meant for five players. It usually has 3-5 bosses, some "trash" in between them, and possibly some goals to fulfill in order to progress. When a dungeon is current content, you'd expect to spend maybe 30 minutes on it.

A "raid", on the other hand, is a far larger undertaking. You need a group of 10-25 players, who should ideally make sure to fill more specific niches than "tank", "healer", and "damage-dealer" (e.g. "This boss uses a Curse-type debuff, so you need one or two players with the ability to remove those curses"). The trash is harder. You have more bosses, often 10-15, and they are much harder, and often require a lot of coordination in order to survive specific abilities. A raid is something you do over the course of a few evenings.

Thank you, sir. I, too, am MMO ignorant.

 

[teitan]

Ah, I see. As far as I know, it's correct to say DD 1&2 didn't sell particularly well. However, those sales probably suffered both from them being 4e (which was itself divisive) and also because WotC's reputation for published adventures was pretty bad, especially back at the start of the 4e era.

Plus, of course, they were using the Delve format for their adventures, sharply reducing the amount of content possible in the page count.

We can't sayit was because it was 4e and 4e didn't sale because 4e did sale, even with the players lost to PF, it outsold Pathfinder until the end when nothing was being released or was sporadic. So that isn't a reason. Delve format maybe. Didn't lend itself well to shorter adventures did it? Lol compilations are a mixed bag. I can't think of any compilations of sort adventures that sold well and weren't junk. Lore tends to be what sells adventures and the short ones in compilations tend to not be all that great. Delve format would make a short adventure really be a side trek.

 

[delericho]

We can't sayit was because it was 4e...

I didn't. I said it had an impact, which is similar but not the same.

The bigger issue is probably that WotC's adventures, with a very few shining exceptions, suck.

compilations are a mixed bag. I can't think of any compilations of sort adventures that sold well and weren't junk.

There aren't too many adventure compilations out there at all, so the sample size is small. And yes, most of the ones that do exist are pretty poor - generally because they're low investment products put out by the publisher where they task a handful of freelancers to bang out a few thousand words with little oversight.

But as an example of one that's good, I would submit "Thrillin' Heroics" for the Firefly RPG. I can't claim it "sold well", because it's a non-D&D/non-PF product, which pretty much means it had no chance.

Lore tends to be what sells adventures...

If this is true, then a compilation is most likely doomed. However, I really question whether we have enough evidence to actually support that. Bear in mind that Dungeon ran for 20+ years with short adventures, and had thousands of subscribers.

 

[teitan]

The dungeon mag adventures were about the size of a module rather than short,5-10 page, adventures though. There was often a good sized adventure in every issue as well and during its heyday in 3e included Polyhedron as a flip mag that boosted sales and then the extremely popular Shackled City and Age of Worms.

 

[delericho]

The dungeon mag adventures were about the size of a module rather than short,5-10 page, adventures though.

Ah. We're working from different assumptions. By a compilation of adventures, I'd envisaged a book of roughly 256 pages containing around 8 32-page adventures, which would actually be longer than the average from Dungeon.

There was often a good sized adventure in every issue as well and during its heyday in 3e included Polyhedron as a flip mag that boosted sales

I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that Polyhedron actually lost them sales. And, indeed, some of the guys at Paizo have commented in the past that their best days came immediately after that, when they got rid of Poly and settled on a 3-adventure format (with 1 low-, 1 med- and 1 high-level adventure each month).

then the extremely popular Shackled City and Age of Worms.

Those certainly help, but that field is covered by the existing adventure products. Does that mean that no other adventure format can work? My gut feeling is that it doesn't, but of course I can't be sure.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I don't really know what is more convenient for WotC to publish... but I do seem to remember that a year or two ago alot of gamers were asking for adventures, and AP in particular, and everyone was saying this was one of the best feature of Pathfinder IIRC.

Funny thing, before 4e's official announcement, I remember Scott Rouse coming on these board and asking that if you were in charge of D&D's fluff division, what would you do. One popular idea in that thread (IIRC, I argued for it as well) was for yearly campaign settings. And that was exactly what they did with 4e. It did not turn out well. IMO, it was the execution that killed it. I did not figure that Wizards would treat the Forgotten Realms in that way. I thought it would be their one setting that would get support every year. I also suggested (IIRC) that after their first year, the settings should be licensed off to D&D Compatible publishers to continue their support after the highest profit period for that setting was over, which didn't happen. Instead we got a campaign setting book, a short adventure, and either a player's guide or a monster book (in dark sun's case). We got generic supplements, but all in all the campaign settings themselves did not receive much support. So it is down to an execution problem, not an idea problem.

When people argued for a long campaign, I don't think that they meant for that being the only support the game gets. I think those that argued for it felt that their campaigns should be the focus point for a series of supplements: a campaign setting book for the general area for game masters (that can also be used to make your own adventures), player's supplement(s) that may or may not have anything to do with the campaign, and a number of short adventures that could be used with that particular campaign if it went off the rails or could just as easily be used in someone's home campaign.

So again, we come down to execution, not the idea. Elemental Evil's Player's Companion is a great start for the player's supplement, but more is desired.

 

[Nellisir]

OK... Why do people find it difficult to create their own material, like adventures, with the core rules???? Its all there.

For the same reason I don't write all the books I read. I usually disassemble adventures and rebuild them into something that suits my campaign. It's less time-consuming than creating an adventure from scratch and gives me new/different ideas.

 

[Umbran]

So again, we come down to execution, not the idea. Elemental Evil's Player's Companion is a great start for the player's supplement, but more is desired.

I don't think there's a question that more is desired. I think the question is about how much more they can give and still avoid the edition treadmill problem. It is pretty clear that WotC is not interested in a boom-and-bust cycle, so putting out as much as people are willing to buy at the moment is not really an option.

 

[Sunseeker]

Didn't work with 4e, Dungeon Delve 1&2 weren't huge sellers were they?

Is this a rhetorical question or are you actually asking? I don't have the answer I don't buy quest books.