D&D 5E I think WotC has it backwards (re: story arcs)

[Mercurius]

I appreciate the intention to focus on the story. Clearly D&Dis about story. But as we see one story arc roll out after another, I can't help but feel they have it a bit backwards - or at least are taking a very narrow, limited approach that will eventually prove problematic. Theproblem now is that you have two options: either run the story arcs, one after the other, or do your own thing. There's no middle ground. Even if they are serving new DMs by providing them with clear story arcs, or DMs that like to run only pre-published material, not only are they ignoring the many DMs who want material to use in their campaigns, but eventually some of those "story arc DMs" are going to tire of doing story arcs and want to do something else, whether it is running a more episodic campaign with pre-published modules, or a more guided approach to creating their own stories.

Then there's the potential problem of having a bad apple in the bunch - one bad story arc and that's a whole year between good stories. Imaginee the ruckus, the chaos, the armageddon!

Anyhow, the obvious question is this: What's the middle ground? It is simple, really, and involves two areas that can be linked together thematically with one product line. Imagine this:

A campaign setting book that is thematic and regional - like the Underdark, or the Dalelands, or the Crystalmist Mountains, etc. The book is part of an existing world, but gives guidelines for customizing it or adding it to your campaign world, or at least mining it for ideas. Then you have a second book of adventures, site locations, and encounters - running the gamut from one page encounters to full-on modules, even with guidelines on how to create a meta-story. Alternately they could publish only somewhat-generic theme settings like the Underdark, or a woodland region unattached to any known setting but that could be plopped into any homebrew world.

My issue with WotC's approach is that they aren't creating a backdrop for their stories. Sure, we all know about the Forgotten Realms and they're providing setting info on a "need to know" basis, but without actual product the stories end up feeling like they're set in old western towns with surface-thin set pieces. Unless you own older Realms product and are comfortable with adapting other adventures and/or creating your own, you're pretty much stuck within the confines of the published story arc. Now many of us are comfortable, but some are not, and some who are comfortable but with busy schedules (such as myself) would still like new material to work with.

It doesn't even have to be the old campaign setting book approach. What about a detailed Underdark book that can be adapted to any setting, then with a book of adventures for that setting? Or what about a box set? Why not a Sword Coast book to use for the "gaps between" the story arcs being set there, with a book of "further adventures in the Sword Coast" for those finished with the story arcs or wanting something more episodic?

Anyhow, my point is that there's a huge gap in what WotC is offering. I understand the reasons why, but I don't think it is all that sustainable - at least if they want 5E to "thrive and not just survive."

And I know: this has been discussed before. But hopefully I brought some new angles to the conversation, if only old wine in a new jug. And I know: we don't know WotC's plans. But maybe, just maybe, if we put some ideas out there, it will in some way influence their path forward. I mean it, it is our path, our story, after all.

 

[Irennan]

They need that approach because they want all the focus and hype to be on a given, defined storyline, so that they can do all their new multiplatform thingy with the MMO and the other stuff. Yes, they could also do that with the approach you are proposing, but I think that emphasizing the story is more a matter of marketing, of getting the people who play the MMO (and the other non TTRPG stuff) exicted (because -as far as I can see- those people don't really care that much about the setting itself).

A shame IMO, but that's their new method. Whether it will work or not remains to be seen, though.

(Before someone comes in saying to use the old books, yeah everyone knows -and does- that, but 1)with the Sundering and all, an update, even simple articles, is needed 2)that's not the point of the post).

 

[Blackwarder]

What I would love to see WotC do is a spread of smaller adventures, like MiBG, LotCS or SotSC, other than that I'm fine with the current model, I'm running a weekly game of HotDQ and PotA for two different groups and it will take us another 6-8 months to finish those two mega adventures.

I'm not too keen on a new FR campaign setting, I'd much rather have mini setting booklets like the ones we got in MiBG and LotCS or the AL write ups for Mulmaster and Phlan.

YMMV...

Warder

 

[Kramodlog]

The current approach is all sort of problematic... for the RPG and RPG fans. With the current model they only catter to a certain type of gamers, those who like to buy/run/read APs. Nothing wrong with APs, but it isn't a source book or splat or an adventure module. Those who want those products just can't give WotC their money and might lose interest in the game.

But right now WotC wants to expend D&D. It doesn't want to be the RPG leader, as Mearls hinted at the end of a converence given by Ryan Dancey*. WotC wants to produce video games, maybe cartoons, films...

"This is no secret for anyone here, but the big thing I want to see is just a triple-A RPG video game. I want to see Baldur’s Gate 3, I want to see a huge open-world RPG. I would love movies about Dungeons and Dragons, or better yet, serialized entertainment where we’re doing seasons of D&D stories and things like Forgotten Realms action figures… of course I’d love that, I’m the biggest geek there is. But at the end of the day, the game’s what we’re missing in the portfolio."

Remember,

"Dungeons and Dragons stopped being a tabletop game years or decades ago".

The storyline is there to support the other products, not the RPG. This is how the RPG has been discribed:

Wizards is publishing the spiritual core of the brand.

The spirit is the essence given to a storyline (e.g. Dragons+Tiamat, Underdark+Drizzt+Demogorgon). Its color, its shape. But spirit isn't flesh. The meat... and potatoes. Those are the other products. The RPG, the APs essentially from now on, are support for the rest of the products. The APs provide the story, the other platforms turn the story into a product (and profit). No need to go beyond the minimal out put they have right now.

Better get use to it.

Source of the quotes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewalt/2015/04/15/new-dungeons-dragons-fifth-edition/

[sblock=*]Starts at around 48 minutes.

[video=youtube;xAhG23Rg6FY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAhG23Rg6FY[/video]

[/sblock]

 

[TerraDave]

So, I guess the 4 days passed.

I am telling ya, sub-forum, then you can spawn thread after thread on this.

And we can just keep posting the same stuff over and over again. So in that spirit...

The rest of us have the core books. They are nice books. We have older materials and dndclassics. 5E is pretty backwards compatible. We have the trickle of things from Unearthed Arcana and the supplement for PotA, which has been fine. We have our imaginations. In most of these threads, someone always says we should just use our imaginations, what is wrong with us?

They can still surprise us. They know they are leaving some money on the table from this strategy. They know better then anyone. They can still decide they want to pick it up.

Until that time: create the subforum.

 

[JeffB]

One of the things that Mearls said way back when during the playtest was that D&D took too much time and competed with other entertainment mediums and would lose out. He wanted people, especially more casual players, to be able to sit down and quickly get into game of an hour or two.

IMO/IME The AP model goes against that. Sure much of the story prep work is done for the DM, but its too much material and there is no big sense of accomplishment for casual players, cos the story TAKES FOREVER if you are a casual group. People lose interest over several months and not coming to any kind of meaningful conclusion/accomplishment. It's fine for the hardcore or people who have the schedule to play often.

In addition I cannot see a brand new/casual DM looking at a gigantic hardback that will take several months to complete, and not being intimidated by it. Had that been the case for me back in the 70s, I would have moved on myself. Running the original modules was intimidating enough for me, and several of my group NEVER wanted to DM because it seemed too tough.

For 5E, In addition to the APs there needs to be more Lost Mine of Phandelver's for those whose life does not revolve around a weekly 4-5 hour D&D game session or two. A quick pickup product for those casual DMs and Players who can complete an entire adventure in couple or three to several sessions and feel like maybe they didn't Save The World From Evil Cultists, but saved a Town, or Village or Dale, or whatever. Pointing new and/or casual players and DMs to PDF files of 30 year old game products is not the answer. Not if they want create and retain substantial new blood, that is.

 

[delericho]

So, I guess the 4 days passed.

I am telling ya, sub-forum, then you can spawn thread after thread on this.

Have you considered maybe not reading threads that don't interest you? Or, better still, why not create some threads about things that do?

 

[TerraDave]

Have you considered maybe not reading threads that don't interest you? Or, better still, why not create some threads about things that do?

First: if everyone else gets to post the same thing over and over again, then so do I. That's already started in this thread, and honestly I think my recycling adds just as much as any body else's does.

Second: there is a precedent for creating sub-forums for overexposed topics. This qualifies.

Third: Can't we just accept that we have all complained about this a lot, and WotC continues to ignore us, and will probably ignore us for a while?

 

[delericho]

First: if everyone else gets to post the same thing over and over again, then so do I. That's already started in this thread, and honestly I think my recycling adds just as much as any body else's does.

Recycling, yes. But complaining about the existence of the thread is threadcrapping, which I think is a no-no.

Second: there is a precedent for creating sub-forums for overexposed topics. This qualifies.

Sure. I'm pretty sure the place to ask for a subforum would be in Meta, though.

Third: Can't we just accept that we have all complained about this a lot, and WotC continues to ignore us, and will probably ignore us for a while?

Apparently not.

Again, though: if these repeated topics don't interest you, why not create some threads about things that do?

 

[TwoSix]

IMO/IME The AP model goes against that. Sure much of the story prep work is done for the DM, but its too much material and there is no big sense of accomplishment for casual players, cos the story TAKES FOREVER if you are a casual group. People lose interest over several months and not coming to any kind of meaningful conclusion/accomplishment. It's fine for the hardcore or people who have the schedule to play often.

In MMO terms, 5e needs less raids and more dungeons.