D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Crothian]

In the event that you are curious whether, as a GM, I have encountered circumstance where rolled stats lead to overshadowing issues, the answer is "yes". Hence my preference for non-random stat generation.

I'd assumed as much. Thinking back on it while I know I have seen characters being over shadowed I just don't think it was ever just the stats to be blamed. It was either a player that wanted to hog the spotlight, or a class that was just better then another class.

 

[DaveDash]

I'd assumed as much. Thinking back on it while I know I have seen characters being over shadowed I just don't think it was ever just the stats to be blamed. It was either a player that wanted to hog the spotlight, or a class that was just better then another class.

I've seen a Rogue with +7 to hit at level 1. Apparently rolled an 18, then +2 dex = 20 Dex at level 1. At level 5 after taking a level of Fighter and gaining a proficiency bonus, he had +10 to hit.
Passive perception also something ridiculous like 19 at level 1, can basically spot all the traps in LMoP. It caused the DM problems that he inappropriately decided to nerf sneak attack.

High stats can definitely overshadow and cause issues, and also cause the DM to do extra work to have to adjust things.

 

[Ranes]

The first authors I thought of were Hobbes and Locke. I only bothered to Google Leviathan. In introducing the Project Gutenberg text for Leviathan, the editor tells us that "Hobbes used capitals and italics very extensively, for emphasis, for proper names, for quotations, and sometimes, it seems, just because."

If you look through you'll see plenty of examples (eg in ch 6).

Seventeenth century typography sure was exciting. But the works of these authors are not remembered because of it. They are remembered in spite of it, because what they had to say was profound, challenging, revelatory or otherwise significant, not because of the way the words were typeset.

It's not any sort of crime against style or reason. Particularly on an internet forum, which permits a very casual attitude in respect of both.

It is not a crime against reason but it is often frowned upon, especially in Internet forums, as it happens. As for questions of style, writing in block capitals is not usually a good idea. What Locke and Hobbes and even Kant and company might not have known (at least with the certainty that it's understood today) is that the human eye discerns the variation in shape of mixed and lower case letters much more easily than it does with block capitals, thus sentence case increases legibility. It's just kinder on the reader.

But you probably know that, just as you are probably aware that my original post mentioning block capitals was made to capture a fleeting moment of irony.

 

[Ranes]

When it comes to giving players choice, if 4/5 players don't mind either way, but 1/5 players has a strong preference to point buy, you should probably enforce point buy.

I think I would.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I mentioned melee clerics because [MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION] did, and because I've had the experience personally in an AD&D game, where my melee cleric, due to superior stats, outshone the melee fighters. I'm not making any point about CoDzilla, which is an artefact of one edition of the game that I have played very little of.

I am almost always the GM.

In the event that you are curious whether, as a GM, I have encountered circumstance where rolled stats lead to overshadowing issues, the answer is "yes". Hence my preference for non-random stat generation.

The reason I use the cleric as the example (even without COdzilla) is because they still have great armor choice, good weapon choice, and if you don't self buff, just prep exploration spells and healing spells, and you can still out fight a fighter at several levels
((((To be fair 5e has made BOTH codzila less viable and straight fighter MORE then 3e did))))

it doesn't have to be a cleric though... lets take a wizard

give the wizard a crazy awesome set of rolls... and I'll go with the most crazy I ever saw 18,18,17,17,16,15... then give the fighter bad rolls (not the worst I have ever seen) 15, 13, 11, 10, 9, 7

now the wizard can go and take any race... in fact, he chooses no race... no stat bumps and no special abilities

the fighter chooses the +2 str +2 con race (I think it is a dwarf)

so we end up with

fighter 17 str, 7 dex 15 con, 10 int, 11 wis, 9 cha
wizard 16 str 17 dex 18 con 18 int 17 wis 15 cha

max 1st level hp so the fighter has 12, and the wizard has 10... the fighter where's good armor(ring mail+ shield) and has a 16 AC... the wizard casts mage armor and has 15 AC. the Wizard has a staff that attacks +4 and does 1d8+3 and the fighter has a long sword that does 1d8+3

the fighter once per short rest may take a second action (action surge) and the wizard has spells...

how much worse would it be if the wizard was the fighter's brother, and the same type of dwarf...
wizard 18 str 17 dex 20 con 18 int 17 wis 15 cha

with 2 more hp they have equal hp, and the extra +1 to hit and damage is insult to injury...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

a class that was just better then another class.

and in a nut shell you have 1/2 of my groups house rules for 3.5... we only used a few classes, and almost none (defiantly not full caster) from the PHB at the end...

 

[Ranes]

and in a nut shell you have 1/2 of my groups house rules for 3.5... we only used a few classes, and almost none (defiantly not full caster) from the PHB at the end...

I'm not going to use that house rule but I still quite like it. What was your other 3.5 house rule?

 

[Crothian]

and in a nut shell you have 1/2 of my groups house rules for 3.5... we only used a few classes, and almost none (defiantly not full caster) from the PHB at the end...

We quit that version before it got to that point. One group of mine is doing Pathfinder now but when that finishes up hopefully next month we are also going to be moving away from that system. I'm looking forward to that day. Both those games were fun and we had many many years of enjoyment in them the group is ready to move on to something simpler. That was going to be Rules Cyclopedia since I have like a half dozen copies of that but it seems 5e might be good enough.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm not going to use that house rule but I still quite like it. What was your other 3.5 house rule?

we had a hombrew race we all used (that was pretty close in feel but not background to the 4e deva) we made most creatures that were immune to crits and sneak attack instead take 1/2 damage (not all things, like oozes, but most) we took the leadership feat and made it an all or nothing feature (everyone gets leadership or no one does and it costs no feat).

then a few different ones for different worlds... the classes where the most part (fighter could be level diped up to level 4 but not above, no wizard or cleric or druid replaced with warmage, Dread necromancer, beguiler, favored soul, archivist, shaman, book of 9 swords classes, warlock, marshal, dragon shaman)

 

[spinozajack]

And? This just reinforces the reasons why I, and others, prefer not to use rolled stats. It doesn't show that it is adding anything to the game.

Yes it does, it allows for the creme de la creme, prime specimens to rise above the rest in terms of natural aptitude. That's plausible and realistic. Some people appreciate a little variety and realism. Real life is not balanced in terms of equality of opportunity. Some people are born smarter, stronger, AND better looking too. It's what you do with the hand you're dealt that matters, not what you are born with.

It teaches you about life, hard work and determination matter more than raw talent most of the time.