D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Ridley's Cohort]

This thread makes me wonder how D&D would look if we simply removed base stats. Martial classes would get a proficiency-like bonus to physical damage damage that increases with level, caster classes would get the same applied to spells. We could take it one step further and remove damage dice, substituting half+1 for each weapon. All that would remain would be the d20 roll.

I don't think rolling has anything to do with optimizing or risk or enjoyment of randomosity. I just think it reflects on if people like rolling more or less dice.

There are certainly mechanics light games that dispense with the concept of detailed physical/mental stats, because everything notable about the PC can be expressed as a "skill". Gumshoe basically goes that way, and adds wrinkles for health and a few other combat relevant skills to handle the details of refresh/healing.

As for a super light D&D, you could choose from a list of Skills (which may or may not depend on class). There could even be traits like Strong or Agile on that skill list -- if you want to include the fiddliness having a stat/trait mod to the skill roll.

As for not rolling for damage, that is pretty common in light rules miniatures war games. As a matter of game design, you get limited gain by stacking a randomized result on top of a randomized result, which is why rolling for AC is not very compelling. Warhammer does this in a very particular that makes flavor sense: first there is the To Hit roll, and then there is the Armor Penetration roll; but >95% of the attacks do exactly 1 Wound of damage always so there is no rolling there. It is certainly common for this to be wrapped up on a single chart where we look up the Attack Factor vs. Defense Factor for the % to roll -- that is essentially what Gary's original attack charts do (only he tacked on variable Health Points as well as variable Damage).

It is possible to imagine "D&D" where our heroes start at level 1 with 2-3 "Hit Points" and damage is always 1 (until you reach higher level exotic effects).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Someone's confusing "compromise" with "do it my way". Kind of ironic, actually. Because of all the 'sides" I see here, there is one side who absolutely will refuse to play any other way but theirs (everyone's stats have to be the same). By and large, the random die roll crowd is perfectly fine with you playing with whatever method you want as long as you don't force them to your preference of array/point buy only via implied accusations to their character ("Your way isn't fair or causes me actual pain").

It is so helpful for you choose to put words into people's mouth ("everyone's stats have to be the same"), yet again.

As for compromise, if the house rules were really "whatever method you want", I would have no problem whatsoever. I would look at the stats of the various PCs, write down stats that I think are comparable, and ask the DM if they looked reasonable, which boils down to point buy by other means.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Someone's confusing "compromise" with "do it my way". Kind of ironic, actually. Because of all the 'sides" I see here, there is one side who absolutely will refuse to play any other way but theirs (everyone's stats have to be the same). By and large, the random die roll crowd is perfectly fine with you playing with whatever method you want as long as you don't force them to your preference of array/point buy only via implied accusations to their character ("Your way isn't fair or causes me actual pain").

Though it's not like the "random" crowd is free of harmful voices either. "Oh sure, you can go play your immature non-D&D game, and I'll continue doing REAL roleplay instead of stupid badwrongfun rollplay. But not near me. Do that and I'll eject you from the table, or walk if I'm not the DM."

If we're going to characterize one argument by the worst things said by its proponents, let's do it to both sides, yeah?

 

[Sacrosanct]

It is so helpful for you choose to put words into people's mouth ("everyone's stats have to be the same"), yet again.
.

That's not putting words in anyone's mouth. That's what the array is, quite literally: every starts with the same stats. We've also had people admit they do not like it at all if any other PC has any additional bonuses, using phrases like "not fair" or "punishing", which certainly infers that everyone must have the same stat baseline.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Though, to be fair, it's not like the "random" crowd is free of harmful voices. "Oh sure, you can go play your immature non-D&D game, and I'll continue doing REAL roleplay instead of stupid badwrongfun rollplay. But not near me. Do that and I'll eject you from the table, or walk if I'm not the DM."

That's not what people are saying. Not that I've seen anyway, but I admit I haven't been able to keep up with every post in every thread.


What people are saying (and I've said it myself), is not "go play your immature non-D&D game". Use whatever style you want, I don't care. What we/I am saying is, "if you're getting that worked up because another player happened to have a higher stat and you're seriously telling me you're getting punished and encounter out of game distress over it, then that's an immature reaction."

Those are two totally different things. What I have seen, a lot, is the implication that if I'm pro-random, I support unfairness, punishing players, and causing people out of game distress.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Though it's not like the "random" crowd is free of harmful voices either. "Oh sure, you can go play your immature non-D&D game, and I'll continue doing REAL roleplay instead of stupid badwrongfun rollplay. But not near me. Do that and I'll eject you from the table, or walk if I'm not the DM."

If we're going to characterize one argument by the worst things said by its proponents, let's do it to both sides, yeah?

Niven's Law #17: "There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it." And yeah, that applies to both sides of this debate, and all debates.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That's not putting words in anyone's mouth. That's what the array is, quite literally: every starts with the same stats.

Please name even one person in this thread who has taken the position: We only use array, instead of point buy or rolling.

But to be actually literal, instead of your wishy-washy kind of figuratively literal literal, array does not mean what you said it means. I could choose to put the high number in Dex and you might choose Str, etc.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Someone's confusing "compromise" with "do it my way". Kind of ironic, actually. Because of all the 'sides" I see here, there is one side who absolutely will refuse to play any other way but theirs (everyone's stats have to be the same).

no most (not all) on the point but side don't care what you do as long as you don't pretend that it is only 'sour grapes' if you want to play our way... infact 90% of my argument has been entirely defending that there is a reason to feel the way I do, and being dismissive of people who feel as I do is down right insulting..

By and large, the random die roll crowd is perfectly fine with you playing with whatever method you want as long as you don't force them to your preference of array/point buy only via implied accusations to their character ("Your way isn't fair or causes me actual pain").

BS... you are making that up, we have tried so hard to find ANY common ground that umbra went to the crazy sit on a tack idea just to get us all to agree... and at least 1 pro rolling stats person would not even admit making someone sit on a tact would be unfair.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

no most (not all) on the point but side don't care what you do as long as you don't pretend that it is only 'sour grapes' if you want to play our way... infact 90% of my argument has been entirely defending that there is a reason to feel the way I do, and being dismissive of people who feel as I do is down right insulting..

So then why are you mocking me in post #439? You even quoted me saying "Like every other assertion in this thread, it's a matter of taste," so clearly you're aware that I'm fine with you feeling the way you do. Why do you also feel the need to denigrate me?

And you're continuing to denigrate me in #457. That doesn't look like the behavior of someone who's just defending himself, that looks like someone who's trying to "win" an argument by attacking.

 

[spinozajack]

Though it's not like the "random" crowd is free of harmful voices either. "Oh sure, you can go play your immature non-D&D game, and I'll continue doing REAL roleplay instead of stupid badwrongfun rollplay. But not near me. Do that and I'll eject you from the table, or walk if I'm not the DM."

If we're going to characterize one argument by the worst things said by its proponents, let's do it to both sides, yeah?

I allow point buy or rolling, so I'm not sure if you're referring to what I wrote, but don't mischaracterize it. I said there exists such a thing as immature D&D players, who throw tantrums and throw their dice when they roll poorly, which is ironic considering they are playing a game with dice rolling as a certain feature and agent of resolution, and seem fundamentally ill-equipped either intellectually or emotionally to handle it.

Those are the types of problem players that I eject from my table, and not you, nor anyone else can tell me or will convince me that I shouldn't do that. I'm not here to babysit crybabies, I'm in my late 30s and don't tolerate childish behavior from anyone I choose to spend time with, during D&D or not.

And yes, I get invited to play with many gamers all the time, and invite others to play in my games. Ill behavior is something I distance myself from. And yes, in my lengthy experience, I've learned to spot such problem players early based on numerous cues, one of which is the idea that the game must be "fair" in outcome when dice are rolled. That is total nonsense and that kind of thinking, is not only irrational, but fundamentally goes against the entire purpose of what D&D means. If someone tells me they hate dice rolling, I say, well go play another game. Seriously, there are plenty of diceless games out there that they would be happier with. If I get an inkling that someone who wants to play thinks it's unfair for someone else in the group has a +1 more than they do because they chose to roll their stats and rolled well or poorly, that is yes, a clear sign that there are going to be problems when rulings don't go their way, or something happens in the plot they consider unfair. That's too bad. Those are classic problem players as outlined in the DMG in EVERY edition, from the 1st onward.