Improved Grab

[Naimonor]

I am confused about Improved Grab. This is the relevant text:

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

I don't understand what that "other" means. If I choose to take the -20 penalty, can I attack ONLY other opponents or EVEN other opponents?

 

[Ranes]

I'm not sure if the FAQ, Errata or any of the old Sage Advice articles tackle this but my reading of it has always been that any remaining attacks can be directed either at the grabbed opponent or other opponents. I think the wording is there to emphasise the difference between the -20-based grapple check and a normal check. However, if you do allow the creature to use its other attacks against the grappled opponent, note paragraphs three and five under "If you're grappling" on page 156 of the PHB, which I believe would still apply.

 

[Naimonor]

So, if I can attack the grappled opponent with other natural weapons (let's assume I am a creature with 4 tentacles), shouldn't I be able to use again Improved Grab on him?

 

[Ranes]

Improved grab allows you to 'start a grapple'. If you are already grappling your opponent, you cannot start to grapple that opponent. The grapple has already started.

 

[Naimonor]

Improved grab allows you to 'start a grapple'. If you are already grappling your opponent, you cannot start to grapple that opponent. The grapple has already started.

So this part of Improved Grab is not relevant?

If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself

 

[Ranes]

Notice the semi-colon and what follows it. Dex bonus to AC, threatening an area and being able to attack other opponents are things you cannot do if you are grappling, unless you have improved grab. For these purposes, if you have improved grab, you are not considered grappling.

I can see why someone might interpret the rule differently but my reading of it is simply that taking the -20 on the grapple check to hold the creature simply gains you the benefits listed. The creature is not considered grappled (for those purposes) but the creature it holds certainly is considered grappled. Thus, I don't believe the creature with improved grab can attempt to start to grapple it again.

 

[Greenfield]

Normally if a creature grapples a PC, it uses all of its arms,whatever. Both opponents are considered "Grappled", and occupy the same square.

Being "grappled" by someone comes with a lot of baggage, in terms of dex bonus, spell casting, and what if any weapons you can use.

If a creature, such as the four-tentacled thing suggested above, decides to hold the opponent at arm's length then it takes a -20 to its check, but is not considered "grappled" by the creature it's grappling. That means it can draw and use weapons or magic items, can prepare spell components and cast spells without the Concentration check normally required (base DC 20 + spell level + damage taken from the Grapple is the standard, per RAW.) It retains full DEX bonus to AC and keeps its full threat range.

Consider the king of grapples, the Kraken (MM pp162). It has a Grapple check of +44, due to size, strength and feats.

If it decides to put its full attention onto one opponent, pull it in close and hold on with everything it's got, that +44 is nigh irresistible. That, however, leaves it fully occupied and vulnerable to the attacks of the rest of the party.

So it decides to hold on with just one Gargantuan tentacle. The Grapple drops by 20 to a more sane +24, but it's now free to swim away, fight other opponents or use its spell-like abilities.

A +24 is still pretty awesome, but a PC of appropriate level could still escape, on a good roll.

Be aware, of course, of the difference between Improved Grab and Improved Grapple.

Improved Grab lets creatures who hit normally initiate a Grapple as part of the attack.
Improved Grapple allows creatures to initiate a Grapple as a Touch Attack, without provoking AoO, and gain a +4 bonus on the Grapple check.

One is a "Special Ability" of some creatures, the other is a Feat available to PCs.

 

[Ranes]

Then again, I've just clocked this…

Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round (PHB p157). Maybe your four-tentacled monster with improved grab can attempt multiple grapples against its target after all.

Evil.

Edit: I still think the whole thing about -20 and not being considered grappling only applies to the listed benefits but, given the difficulty of multiple grapple attacks at -20 (in addition to the lower attack bonuses from the subsequent attacks), I wouldn't feel particularly aggrieved if you applied your interpretation of improved grab to my PC.