D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

[Coredump]

And that's the problem with dpr calcs. They ignore minimums and maximums. Then when you actually play the game, and a player gets a bit lucky, stuff breaks. On the other hand you can remove the -5/+10 and you don't need to worry.

Then we should get rid of any and all dice.... don't want to let the game be effected by dice....

 

[Coredump]

Here is an in depth analysis of the DPR gained by GWM/SS:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZGd7HwD1dWSzYqVx4PQqw9dl9YYzKxRv7YJtOojkDE/edit?usp=sharing

Sorry, but that is way to incomplete to be considered 'in depth'.

IMHO a significant increase in DPR is ~10% which is what a +2 to an ability score typically gives.

Fair enough, so you just dont' like any offensive feats. GWM, SS, CE, PAM, SM.... all of those will be more than a 10% boost.

 

[Coredump]

This is getting crazy time consuming.

I may come and look at the chart put up on the last page, but its way too late at this point;

I did want to apologize to Dave about Bless.... for whatever reason I somehow got locked on that it was rolled once.....instead of rolling for each attack as they occured. No idea why I thought that, but that was why my Bless comments made no sense.

 

[aramis erak]

Here are my result tables from cranking the numbers...
All are based upon what natural roll you need in order to hit. For each bonus and damage die type, the upper table shows the AC's where the standard is better. For the second, it compares what the difference is for a +1 Attribute bonus (the default option) versus taking a power-attack feature feat. Yes, I included the bonus damage for crits in it. Yes, I remembered the always fails on a 1.

An Em Dash indicates that that combination of weapon and ability mod is always inferior. (The source tables include (AC-AtkBn)'s to 26 and –3... but this collation had to be done almost by hand.

Std ≥ Power T’sAC–AtkBn
Atk Bn	D4	D6	D8	D10	D12	2d6
6	14–16	13–17	13–17	12–17	12–17	12–18
5	14–16	14–17	13–17	13–17	12–17	12–17
4	15–16	14–16	14–17	13–17	13–17	12–17
3	15–15	15–16	14–16	14–17	13–17	13–17
2	15–15	15–16	14–16	14–17	13–17	13–17
1	—	15–15	15–16	14–16	14–17	14–17
0	—	—	15–15	15–16	14–16	14–17
-1	—	—	—	15–15	15–16	14–16

+1 AttBn ≥ Power T’sAC–AtkBn
Atk Bn	D4	D6	D8	D10	D12	2d6
6	12–18	11–18	11–18	10–19	10–19	10–19
5	12–18	12–18	11–18	10–18	10–19	10–20
4	13–17	12–18	12–18	11–18	10–19	10–19
3	14–17	13–18	12–18	12–18	11–18	11–19
2	14–17	13–17	13–18	12–18	11–18	11–18
1	15–16	14–17	13–17	13–18	12–18	12–18
0	15–15	15–16	14–17	13–18	13–18	12–18
-1	—	15–15	14–17	14–17	13–18	13–18

Note that taking the attribute bonus is superior in the most common AC's in the game unless you either (1) use D4 weapons or (2) have an attribute penalty.

 

[DaveDash]

This is getting crazy time consuming.

I may come and look at the chart put up on the last page, but its way too late at this point;

I did want to apologize to Dave about Bless.... for whatever reason I somehow got locked on that it was rolled once.....instead of rolling for each attack as they occured. No idea why I thought that, but that was why my Bless comments made no sense.

Thank you.

I've ran some numbers myself, since actual game experience is considered too anecdotal.

Assuming Bless in all instances, since I think Bless is part of the "problem".

I think it's reasonable to expect a ratio of ~1.7 damage increase (AC16, some will be lower, some will be higher) which still makes Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter freakin awesome just for the damage increase alone, then they come loaded with other really nice benefits as well. Even against AC20 you're getting a very nice damage boost.



Note: I've left crits out for simplicity and assumed Human so he can get all his feats and +5 ability score by level 8.

 

[Celtavian]

This is getting crazy time consuming.

I may come and look at the chart put up on the last page, but its way too late at this point;

I did want to apologize to Dave about Bless.... for whatever reason I somehow got locked on that it was rolled once.....instead of rolling for each attack as they occured. No idea why I thought that, but that was why my Bless comments made no sense.

Your finally starting to realize why this is getting really annoying. I think I've done this song and dance in two, possibly three (maybe four), threads now.

The conclusions have been reached using actual game play and an analysis of the underlying psychology of when to use the feats. Pure white room math doesn't show the same results because it doesn't take into account many of the factors that cause the damage difference, many of them having to do with optimization by players using the feats in as intelligent a fashion as possible. Which from reading these threads happens a lot less than I thought. That's ok. Lots of different players enjoy RPGs for different reasons. Optimizing combat is merely one play-style that causes these feats to stand out more than others. From my perspective, I wish they wouldn't let any such feats into the game. I'm so burned out on these types of optimization options making it into the game forcing me to have modify encounters specifically to deal with them. I wish the game designers would look at something like Sharpshooter and say, "Hey, this feat does too much. We need to tone it down. Removes cover. Removes distance. Does extra damage. This is really going to cause a lot of headaches for DMs." It would make time playing these games easier.

It was similar in Pathfinder. So few people reached the higher levels, no one saw how overpowered Come and Get Me was as a DM. Or certain high level spell combinations. Or numerous other feat combinations that didn't come online until higher level. Debating in the open community was difficult because of the vastly different play-styles which caused people to experience the game differently.

These threads are often good for someone that wants to optimize. They learn some stuff like making a Barbarian/Fighter if you know you're probably going to get to high level is a hell of a good multiclass combination. Three attacks, barbarian rage with damage resistance against everything not psychic damage is a nasty combination.

 

[Celtavian]

Thank you.

I've ran some numbers myself, since actual game experience is considered too anecdotal.

Assuming Bless in all instances, since I think Bless is part of the "problem".

I think it's reasonable to expect a ratio of ~1.7 damage increase (AC16, some will be lower, some will be higher) which still makes Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter freakin awesome just for the damage increase alone, then they come loaded with other really nice benefits as well. Even against AC20 you're getting a very nice damage boost.

View attachment 68883

Note: I've left crits out for simplicity and assumed Human so he can get all his feats and +5 ability score by level 8.

bless is awesome. We try to keep it up as much as possible. In the last campaign, my cleric wasn't casting bless to preserve spell slots for tougher fights. I was getting some serious sour looks and an occasional comment from the other players. "No bless, dude." Or "You going to cast bless? Or just stand there doing nothing?" Or the mage saying "Bless only on the martials, eh? Lame." I felt like the martials did more damage, so blessing the mage so he could launch fire bolt wasn't as good as bless on the monk, warlock/fighter, and eldritch knight sharpshooter. The mage player understood the underlying math, so he didn't press it. He got to launch fireballs against humanoid enemies on occasion. That really puts him up high on the DPR list.

 

[aramis erak]

Thank you.

I've ran some numbers myself, since actual game experience is considered too anecdotal.


Note: I've left crits out for simplicity and assumed Human so he can get all his feats and +5 ability score by level 8.

That's a fatal flaw - Crits really skew the numbers (in favor of the feat)... Especially since it's just +(0.05*(avgOnDamageDie)) DPA.

Your numbers are flawed by virtue of (1) selection bias & (2) small sample.

In the range of typical AC's (13-18 for most monsters) you're better with the attribute raise than a power attack feat.
Bless effectively shifts the expected range to 10-16.

Yes, Bless is a potential problem. But bless is limited uses - so if it's dominating, the solution is not to nerf the feat (which is, most of the time, inferior to or only barely better than the attribute raise it replaces); the proper solution is to nerf the caster of Bless - and as with all non-warlock spell casters - which is done by forcing them to use spells before the bigbad. And remember the time limits.

Don't give them a break between the battles - as they're finishing up wave 1, wave 2 shows up.
Use dispel magic on blessed foes.
Occasionally, have a fallback-engagement... where the badguys are in range, but never close to melee, and retreat when PC's try.
See if you can split the party.

On the other hand, D&D is (and has been since early on) Medieval Super Heroes. Just look at the fighter level titles in the little brown/white books...

1	Veteran
2	Warrior
3	Swordsman
4	Hero*
5	Swashbuckler
6	Myrmidon**
7	Champion
8	Superhero
9	Lord

Feats need to be power climb. Spells need to be power climb, too. But the power climb of the power attack feats is NOT gained when the needed rolls are around 15's, ±(1 to 2), widest for the strongest. (Which, for a 1st level party, is AC 18-22, for needed TH rolls of 13-18).

And, while I don't have roll logs (I don't play online, because my experieces with D&D online play are EXCEEDINGLY negative due to living up to bad D&D player stereotypes), my experiences with 30+ sessions with people using power attacks, even those who have a clue haven't done the math, and make suboptimal choices (giving up chance to hit 3-4 turns running). And, I should rerun them accounting for advantage - which at my table is far more rare than Bardic Inspiration... I've only had bless cast once, and I will admit that I've never DM'd a 5E party above 8th level. But, at least in the 4th-8th range, it's been consistently misused.

 

[DaveDash]

bless is awesome. We try to keep it up as much as possible. In the last campaign, my cleric wasn't casting bless to preserve spell slots for tougher fights. I was getting some serious sour looks and an occasional comment from the other players. "No bless, dude." Or "You going to cast bless? Or just stand there doing nothing?" Or the mage saying "Bless only on the martials, eh? Lame." I felt like the martials did more damage, so blessing the mage so he could launch fire bolt wasn't as good as bless on the monk, warlock/fighter, and eldritch knight sharpshooter. The mage player understood the underlying math, so he didn't press it. He got to launch fireballs against humanoid enemies on occasion. That really puts him up high on the DPR list.

Yep.

Playing two Clerics now in two campaigns and its like that too.

We notice it when we don't have it on. "Why was that fight so hard?" "No bless" "Ah that explains it".

 

[Minigiant]

Here are my result tables from cranking the numbers...
All are based upon what natural roll you need in order to hit. For each bonus and damage die type, the upper table shows the AC's where the standard is better. For the second, it compares what the difference is for a +1 Attribute bonus (the default option) versus taking a power-attack feature feat. Yes, I included the bonus damage for crits in it. Yes, I remembered the always fails on a 1.

An Em Dash indicates that that combination of weapon and ability mod is always inferior. (The source tables include (AC-AtkBn)'s to 26 and –3... but this collation had to be done almost by hand.

Std ≥ Power T’sAC–AtkBn
Atk Bn	D4	D6	D8	D10	D12	2d6
6	14–16	13–17	13–17	12–17	12–17	12–18
5	14–16	14–17	13–17	13–17	12–17	12–17
4	15–16	14–16	14–17	13–17	13–17	12–17
3	15–15	15–16	14–16	14–17	13–17	13–17
2	15–15	15–16	14–16	14–17	13–17	13–17
1	—	15–15	15–16	14–16	14–17	14–17
0	—	—	15–15	15–16	14–16	14–17
-1	—	—	—	15–15	15–16	14–16

+1 AttBn ≥ Power T’sAC–AtkBn
Atk Bn	D4	D6	D8	D10	D12	2d6
6	12–18	11–18	11–18	10–19	10–19	10–19
5	12–18	12–18	11–18	10–18	10–19	10–20
4	13–17	12–18	12–18	11–18	10–19	10–19
3	14–17	13–18	12–18	12–18	11–18	11–19
2	14–17	13–17	13–18	12–18	11–18	11–18
1	15–16	14–17	13–17	13–18	12–18	12–18
0	15–15	15–16	14–17	13–18	13–18	12–18
-1	—	15–15	14–17	14–17	13–18	13–18

Note that taking the attribute bonus is superior in the most common AC's in the game unless you either (1) use D4 weapons or (2) have an attribute penalty.

So basically... if you start with 16, you shouldn't take the "power attack" feats just for just damage until after you take +2 feats to get to 20 or if you have a dedicated, numerous, and reliable source of bonus accuracy.