D&D 5E So what's exactly wrong with the fighter?

[Tony Vargas]

Why does everything outside the set of "IRL mundane things" have to be specifically done through casting spells?

Or Ki points, or, now psionic powers.

Why does being purely martial mean supernatural feats (actions, not the rules element) are verboten?

Because supernatural is outside what even the most extreme martial archetypes ever display. It's almost definitional. Heracles, for instance, spelled(npi) Atlas and held up the world (or the sky, depending on version) for a while. Setting aside that a world(or sky) that /needs/ holding up is at odds with modern astronomy, that feat was simply lifting a great weight. It was wildly super-human and clearly impossible, but lifting great weights is something that's perfectly natural, so no matter how extreme the weight, the feat is not supernatural.

"Not supernatural" then, isn't such a terrible limitation. 'Realism' - to a RL or scientific (or 'reality isn't real' trope) level - or 'mundane,' OTOH, are absolutely crippling to class design.

I recommend actually playing the fighter first.

At least through 6th level, too, or you won't get the full effect.

 

[Ashkelon]

Well one thing I'm starting to notice in this thread is that even the alternate fighter posters don't seem to have a consensus on what exactly is wrong with the fighter and what should be corrected/changed. Some people want a more interesting fighter in combat, some want a mythical fighter, others want a "balanced" fighter in non-combat stuff, another wants maneuvers that take stamina away that are mostly centered around things a fighter can already do...

Most of the things you mentioned aren't really mutually exclusive...

You can have an interesting martial warrior who has mythical capabilities, features useful outside of combat, and dynamic gameplay/resource management all on the same class.

 

[Imaro]

Most of the things you mentioned aren't really mutually exclusive...

You can have an interesting martial warrior who has mythical capabilities, features useful outside of combat, and dynamic gameplay/resource management all on the same class.

Not saying they are... but we also shouldn't assume that someone who wants interesting combat abilities also wants to play a Dawn caste from Exalted as opposed to Odyseus or Lancelot. While not mutually exclusive wanting one does not necessarily lead to wanting one of the others either... each has it's own individual concerns insofar as mechanics, flavor, power, etc. Which could make an all-inclusive fighter that hits all of those marks even harder to implement in a manner that pleases everyone... so then whose concerns are primary and whose are secondary?

 

[Minigiant]

Use your extra feat and take GWM or SS (penalty for damage bonus)... I mean the one thing I thought everyone who was looking for an alternative fighter agreed on was that the fighter didn't really need more DPR...

EDIT: But yeah on top of having the most attacks per round and action surge... I guess we could give the fighter even more damage...

I don't want extra damage or more strength. The point iis to get mythical feet's of strength, speed, toughness, agility, and athleticism which matches those of giants, dragons, and fey at the the cost of one's own health and learning to actively bypass the body's normal safefy measures. To push a cloud giant's incoming fist aside, grab hold of him, and cleave his head off in one blow at the start of the fight at the cost of a paralyzed arm for a day as you jammed it up swinging that hard.

Sure its just more damage but I can only do it once and have the same feeling as a caster saving up for a nova.

 

[Imaro]

I don't want extra damage or more strength. The point iis to get mythical feet's of strength, speed, toughness, agility, and athleticism which matches those of giants, dragons, and fey at the the cost of one's own health and learning to actively bypass the body's normal safefy measures. To push a cloud giant's incoming fist aside, grab hold of him, and cleave his head off in one blow at the start of the fight at the cost of a paralyzed arm for a day as you jammed it up swinging that hard.

Sure its just more damage but I can only do it once and have the same feeling as a caster saving up for a nova.

Yes but everything you asked for is doable already by a fighter... It's one of the reasons I asked for a defintion (as opposed to examples) of what a "Mythic fighter" actually entails...

 

[Ashkelon]

Yeah I would be curious to know how many people asking for an alternate fighter have played the fighter class and if so which subclass...

Played to level 13 as a Strength based battlemaster. I found the class to be exceptionally repetitive and boring. I had a number of maneuvers, but it was almost always optimal to use menacing attack, riposte, or precision strike. The other maneuvers were typically a waste of a superiority die. There was no dyanic decision making to the class. It was typically optimal to dump your dice as soon as possible in a nova round to take down a powerful foe, which mean for 90% of combat I was nothing more than a champion without an extended crit range.

My non combat contribution was minimal as anything I was capable of, another party member could do better.

I certainly killed things quickly in combat, but to me combat is about more than just dealing and receiving damage. I missed having an impact on the outcome of combat and the flow of battle in ways that go above and beyond just bashing faces.

At mid to high levels I began to run into mobility issues. Monsters were either faster, had greater reach, or had special movement modes (climb, fly, burrow) that made it challenging to close into combat every round, which significantly cut my total damage output.

My biggest gripe though was that I didn't ever feel like my character was advancing. The same 3 battlemaster maneuvers I learned at level 3 were the ones I was using at level 13. My numbers got bigger, but not in a way that was all that noticeable (I went from +5 athletics to +10 athletics over the course of 13 levels). I was fighting powerful monsters like golems, dragons, giants, demons, and the like, but my capabilities outside of dealing and absorbing damage didn't seem to reflect the capabilities of a warrior who can fight such monsters.

As to a mythic warrior, check out the 3e warblade. It is capable of a variety of martial techniques that a 5e fighter cannot hope to replicate. Also, in 3e it was possible for warriors to perform mythic martial exploits such as lifting 20,000 lbs, shattering stone walls with their bare hands, jumping 50 feet into the air, wrestling huge size creatures with the hope of winning, and more.

An example of a mythic 5e warrior is this class:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zHLtUBIOpuzbhov9Jk6GsCgftm1TIb2_Q8oHBWo26Jk/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Ashkelon]

Not saying they are... but we also shouldn't assume that someone who wants interesting combat abilities also wants to play a Dawn caste from Exalted as opposed to Odyseus or Lancelot. While not mutually exclusive wanting one does not necessarily lead to wanting one of the others either... each has it's own individual concerns insofar as mechanics, flavor, power, etc. Which could make an all-inclusive fighter that hits all of those marks even harder to implement in a manner that pleases everyone... so then whose concerns are primary and whose are secondary?

I don't think we need "all inclusive fighter" type deal here. Honestly, the 5e fighter is so rigid, that I can't see a way of making it work as a "mythic" fighter. I'd rather there be a whole other class to cover the mythic fighter archetype.

We already have the basic fighter for those who want something simple and mundane. The mythic fighter could have subclasses to cover the varying type of "mythic". For example one could have superhuman strength. Another amazing skill. Etc.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You can have an interesting martial warrior who has mythical capabilities, features useful outside of combat, and dynamic gameplay/resource management all on the same class.

In theory. D&D has never provided one that I'm aware of. Even the Warlord didn't have much going for it out of combat.

Played to level 13 as a Strength based battlemaster.

I'm sorry.

The same 3 battlemaster maneuvers I learned at level 3 were the ones I was using at level 13.

That does seem to be one of the fatal flaws of the sub-class. Imagine if the Ranger, Paladin, and EK only ever learned 1st level spells. That's how sad the Battlemaster is at high level.

To push a cloud giant's incoming fist aside, grab hold of him, and cleave his head off in one blow at the start of the fight at the cost of a paralyzed arm for a day as you jammed it up swinging that hard.

Sure its just more damage but I can only do it once and have the same feeling as a caster saving up for a nova.

Is there really a lot of self-paralyzation going on in genre? I mean, Beowulf only ripped off Grendel's arm with his bare hands once, but it wasn't because his hands stopped working.

Honestly, the 5e fighter is so rigid, that I can't see a way of making it work as a "mythic" fighter. I'd rather there be a whole other class to cover the mythic fighter archetype.

We already have the basic fighter for those who want something simple and mundane. The mythic fighter could have subclasses to cover the varying type of "mythic". For example one could have superhuman strength. Another amazing skill. Etc.

Aside from the danger of obviating the fighter class in a more obvious way than it may already have been, that sounds like a fine idea.

Some "Mythic" abilities could even be supernatural-but-not-magic, like psionic powers - for your demi-god or whatever who actually inherits some supernatural rather than merely superhuman attribute.

Name for such a class? "Hero," perhaps?

 

[Minigiant]

Is there really a lot of self-paralyzation going on in genre? I mean, Beowulf only ripped off Grendel's arm with his bare hands once, but it wasn't because his hands stopped working.

Self harm for more power and damage is a common enough trope if your game takes influence from movies, , anime, and pro wrestling like mine does because of my players. Passing out or feeling the effects of wounds after a battle is an overused trope.

At my table, players volunteer to roll checks to "sell" or "no sell" hits.

 

[Imaro]

Played to level 13 as a Strength based battlemaster. I found the class to be exceptionally repetitive and boring. I had a number of maneuvers, but it was almost always optimal to use menacing attack, riposte, or precision strike. The other maneuvers were typically a waste of a superiority die. There was no dyanic decision making to the class. It was typically optimal to dump your dice as soon as possible in a nova round to take down a powerful foe, which mean for 90% of combat I was nothing more than a champion without an extended crit range.

Bolded for Emphasis: Hmm... do you think this was perhaps an issue with encounter design vs. an issue with the Battlemaster? I mean if 90% of your encounters were centered around taking down a single foe... well that would diminish the dynamic nature of many classes abilities.

I can only speak to what I've seen in my own campaign, which is at 8th level right now. The Battlemaster in my campaign picked Riposte, Menacing Attack, Commander's Strike, Sweeping Attack and Trip Attack ... I'd say he uses all of them around the same amount with Commander's Strike being the most niche... but very useful when the Rogue is lined up for a big damage shot or facing creatures like fiends and undead and you want the paladin to attack more. I'm not convinced that dumping all your dice into the first round of combat is really optimal... unless you're only fighting a single enemy...

My non combat contribution was minimal as anything I was capable of, another party member could do better.

Ah I see and they succeeded every time they attempted something so there was never a point where you backing them up mattered?

In my game the Battlemaster handles most of the physical challenges, unless it's a group check, through skills and attributes but he also has the skulker feat and backs the Rogue up on scouting missions and the like in case something goes wrong... and sometimes it does.

I certainly killed things quickly in combat, but to me combat is about more than just dealing and receiving damage. I missed having an impact on the outcome of combat and the flow of battle in ways that go above and beyond just bashing faces.

Again it seems like 90% of the encounters you were in were designed so that this was the optimal solution... If I don't ever have a nature adventure... does that mean the Druid/Ranger classes are flawed or that my adventure/encounter design is off?

At mid to high levels I began to run into mobility issues. Monsters were either faster, had greater reach, or had special movement modes (climb, fly, burrow) that made it challenging to close into combat every round, which significantly cut my total damage output.

What were your spellcasters doing? I mean it's a team game so why weren't they getting you mobile and where you needed to be to maximize damage?

EDIT: Also if the reach situation became common why not grab lunging strike and increase your own reach? Or Maneuvering Strike to get an ally up close or even Evasive Footwork to close?

My biggest gripe though was that I didn't ever feel like my character was advancing. The same 3 battlemaster maneuvers I learned at level 3 were the ones I was using at level 13. My numbers got bigger, but not in a way that was all that noticeable (I went from +5 athletics to +10 athletics over the course of 13 levels). I was fighting powerful monsters like golems, dragons, giants, demons, and the like, but my capabilities outside of dealing and absorbing damage didn't seem to reflect the capabilities of a warrior who can fight such monsters.

Again interesting since gaining new maneuvers seemed to give more breadth to the Battlemaster in my campaign... and again when facing fiends throw the paladin extra atttacks... golems...none are bigger then Large so tripping, shoving, etc. work on them. Dragons and giants...Goading Attack, Rally, Commander's Strike, Disarming Attack(Giants not Dragons)... and a few others all work at range or allow you to affect the battle even if you can't reach the enemy.