D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[Mark CMG]

You are of course assuming that 5e has hurt the 3pp publishers, which I am not sure is actually the case.

I'm not any worse off and I don't sell *5E* or PF products. If I turned what little efforts I make selling gaming stuff to some 5E material, I doubt it would be a huge impact on my own bottom line. I think the assumption on the part of some people is that if you wish to produce 5E material for sale, you're in it for the money and thus untrustworthy which happens to be another form of nonsense.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I apologize for misconstruing your meaning and that it was not obvious to me.

But even so, the claim that there are no 3pp producing anything for 5e is not factually correct on its own merits. I will assume therefore you were using hyperbole and let it drop.

Or you could go back and re-read our conversation to see that I never said this statement and that you just now made it up and tried to attribute it to me in order to somehow remain "correct". I will assume therefore you aren't actually even paying attention to our conversation in the slightest and let it drop.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm not any worse off and I don't sell *5E* or PF products. If I turned what little efforts I make selling gaming stuff to some 5E material, I doubt it would be a huge impact on my own bottom line. I think the assumption on the part of some people is that if you wish to produce 5E material for sale, you're in it for the money and thus untrustworthy which happens to be another form of nonsense.

Believing someone is "untrustworthy" because they want to sell a product and make money off their hard work is ridiculous and quite over the top. I certainly don't believe that. Capitalism doesn't bother me a bit.

But at the same time... I've yet to hear the reason why someone wants to be able to sell their work and yet isn't doing it to make money off the sale. If you can answer me that... the reason why someone would want to produce 5E material for *sale* but NOT because of the money they are getting from said sale, I'd love to hear it. Charity drive? Something else?

 

[Wicht]

even so, the claim that there are no 3pp producing anything for 5e is not factually correct on its own merits.

Or you could go back and re-read our conversation to see that I never said this statement and that you just now made it up and tried to attribute it to me in order to somehow remain "correct".

The fact that you happen to be one of those 3PP studios that wanted to release content from the very beginning of WotC's 5E lifespan makes your opinions on the matter less than objective. You can claim WotC would have been better off... but in truth, it's you and other designers like you who truly would have been better off because you'd be actually selling things right now, rather than not selling anything.

I guess you did say, "sell," rather than, "produce," but that seems like a rather nit-picky sorta distinction to me.

 

[Wicht]

But at the same time... I've yet to hear the reason why someone wants to be able to sell their work and yet isn't doing it to make money off the sale. If you can answer me that... the reason why someone would want to produce 5E material for *sale* but NOT because of the money they are getting from said sale, I'd love to hear it. Charity drive? Something else?

"In it for the money," and "making money" are not the same things.

Very few people are in RPG production "for the money," though they may indeed have a dream of "making money" doing what they love. I admit making a little on the side doing rpg writing is a nice perk for spending time in my hobby. But I don't really know of anyone who is in the industry because of the money.

And it is perfectly possible to want 5e to be OGL without having any interest in writing for 5e.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I guess you did say, "sell," rather than, "produce," but that seems like a rather nit-picky sorta distinction to me.

And I guess I stupidly assumed that because my entire posts were talking about 5E material... I wouldn't need to write it as "but in truth, it's you and other designers like you who truly would have been better off because you'd be actually selling 5E things right now, rather than not selling anything 5E related." I guess I was wrong.

"In it for the money," and "making money" are not the same things.

Very few people are in RPG production "for the money," though they may indeed have a dream of "making money" doing what they love. I admit making a little on the side doing rpg writing is a nice perk for spending time in my hobby. But I don't really know of anyone who is in the industry because of the money.

Really? Then why aren't they all just writing up 5E material and putting it into the EN World downloads section so people can get it free of charge? You just said the cash is a "nice perk". Seems to me, that's EXACTLY why you'd want to sell your work rather than give it away for free. Because the money is a "nice perk".

And please remember, I don't have any problems with you or anyone wanting to sell your 5E work. Go right ahead! Please do! I hope you get a whole bunch of "nice perks"! But just admit that's WHY *you* (the general 'you', not you Wicht specifically) want 5E released under the OGL. Because 'you' want those "nice perks" for doing the work. But don't sit here on the boards and makes claims that it's in WOTC's best interests to do so when you have no insights as to the truthfulness of that statement.

 

[Mark CMG]

"In it for the money," and "making money" are not the same things.

Very few people are in RPG production "for the money," though they may indeed have a dream of "making money" doing what they love. I admit making a little on the side doing rpg writing is a nice perk for spending time in my hobby. But I don't really know of anyone who is in the industry because of the money.

And it is perfectly possible to want 5e to be OGL without having any interest in writing for 5e.

Nail on the head. Thanks. It's pretty clear no amount of discussion will ever change some folks minds regarding their entrenched positions and opinions of anyone interested in an OGL for 5E, particularly if they want to legally publish material and sell it.

 

[Wicht]

And I guess I stupidly assumed that because my entire posts were talking about 5E material... I wouldn't need to write it as "but in truth, it's you and other designers like you who truly would have been better off because you'd be actually selling 5E things right now, rather than not selling anything 5E related." I guess I was wrong.

Clarity and exactness does help with internet conversations.

Though as Mark has already said that he's not doing 5e material, I think your point is moot.

(And again, the "anything" must be understood as hyperbole, as there are some things being produced and sold by 3pp for 5e and thus "something," being more than "nothing," must be enough to meet the criteria of "anything.")

 

[Wicht]

Really? Then why aren't they all just writing up 5E material and putting it into the EN World downloads section so people can get it free of charge? You just said the cash is a "nice perk". Seems to me, that's EXACTLY why you'd want to sell your work rather than give it away for free. Because the money is a "nice perk".

And please remember, I don't have any problems with you or anyone wanting to sell your 5E work. Go right ahead! Please do! I hope you get a whole bunch of "nice perks"! But just admit that's WHY *you* (the general 'you', not you Wicht specifically) want 5E released under the OGL. Because 'you' want those "nice perks" for doing the work. But don't sit here on the boards and makes claims that it's in WOTC's best interests to do so when you have no insights as to the truthfulness of that statement.

Well, as I don't currently have any immediate plans on writing for 5e, I think I can genuinely say that profit is indeed not my immediate reason for wanting a 5e OGL, and I am representative of myself. I think it would be good for the hobby, good for the game, and good for the longevity of 5e. This is not to say that I completely rule out doing 5e writing if the OGL was produced for it, but its not my foremost consideration by any stretch. As for who the "*you*" you are addressing references, it seems a strange sort of conversational trick to use the 2nd person in a conversation to refer to some 3rd person not in the conversation, but which you are accusing of duplicity via an argument being made specifically against the 2nd person you claim to not actually be refering to.

And again, being in it "for the money," has a different connotation than being willing to make a little money. Supplements and material cost money to produce. It is reasonable to want to recoup costs. It is even nice to make a little profit. Doing it "for the money," however has the specific connotation of having no other motive but the money. Which speaks to almost no-one I am aware of in the industry.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Nail on the head. Thanks. It's pretty clear no amount of discussion will ever change some folks minds regarding their entrenched positions and opinions of anyone interested in an OGL for 5E, particularly if they want to legally publish material and sell it.

Well, a certain amount of discussion could possibly change my mind and opinion... if you'd actually answer the question I've repeatedly posed as part of the discussion. But if you don't answer it, that tells me that my opinion is probably right on the money. You of course don't have to answer it... but in that case you just have to expect continued blowback in the future every time you repeatedly post statements stating that WotC's the one missing the boat on not releasing 5E to the OGL. But if you're fine with that, then so am I.