D&D 5E Rules Question: Sniping & Readied Action

[Quickleaf]

So I have a rules questions!

My party has won initiative against a bunch of hidden goblins in the rafters with bows. The party has also shined bright light up into the rafters.

If a player Readies an action to attack a goblin, how does that work exactly?

Do they Ready it for when the goblin "moves" out from behind one of the rafter beams?
Thus, attacking before the goblin has a chance to shoot?
And if so, does that mean the goblin is visible at the time the Readied action resolves?
Would the Ready action also circumvent the goblin's cover?
Also, does the goblin's movement mean that at the point the Readied action resolves it's no longer hidden?

It seems that a "Yes" to all these questions would make Ready too powerful.

Thanks for your input.

I'm having a hard time getting a read on what the rules intend in this regard. Or is it meant to be left to DM fiat?

 

[Syntallah]

I use Ready all the time, and require the PC to give a rather specific trigger:

- I shoot the first goblin to move
- I shoot the first goblin to aim his bow at me
- etc etc etc

 

[KarinsDad]

The typical ready is for the first goblin that they see. In order to be seen, the goblin must no longer be hidden. It's a DM call as to whether the goblin moving out of cover negates hidden for that split second when the goblin is going to fire his bow.

If the DM rules that the goblin is still hidden for that split second, then the goblin's arrow goes first. If the DM rules that the goblin is not still hidden for that split second, then the PC's readied arrow goes first. If I were DM, I would typically rule that if the goblin just sticks his head around and fires, then the goblin goes first. If the goblin actually moves from his "square", then the PC fires.


As the goblin is moving out of total cover, it typically moves into either 3/4ths cover or 1/2 cover. It's not a binary thing of "total cover" and "no cover". At that point, the PC's ready action resolves and the goblin gets some cover.

So yes, the readied action is kind of nice, but again, the PC did win initiative and the PC is also not in total cover in order to use the ready action and cannot move back into total cover after firing.

So, there are balancing factors involved.

 

[Quickleaf]

I talked with over with my 2 fellow players-who-are-also-DMs, and we reached this understanding...

1) Without a doubt AFTER shooting a goblin becomes visible. (D&D Basic Rules)

2) Moving from behind a rafter into bright light means a goblin becomes visible.

3) When a goblin moves into position to shoot its bow, it loses all cover.

Explanation: There is no asymmetrical cover except for arrow slits or things similarly designed for such purpose.

4) Until the goblin returns behind the rafter when it gains cover (corresponding to its position relative to each PC)

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Do any of these points not seem accurate to you?

 

[Mallus]

Here's what I'd do...

Do they Ready it for when the goblin "moves" out from behind one of the rafter beams?

The specific wording wouldn't matter to me. Anything close to "I attack when I see them" works.

Thus, attacking before the goblin has a chance to shoot?

No, after. The Ready description specifies "... after the trigger finishes". There's also some language about Reactions only being Interrupts when explicitly stated.

And if so, does that mean the goblin is visible at the time the Readied action resolves?

Probably. If there was some way the goblin would remain hidden, I'd call for a Perception check before the PC got to attack.

Would the Ready action also circumvent the goblin's cover?

I'd lower it a step. They'd always get the minimum cover.

Also, does the goblin's movement mean that at the point the Readied action resolves it's no longer hidden?

Again, "probably".

It seems that a "Yes" to all these questions would make Ready too powerful.

Ready can only grant a single attack (not the Attack action) (I think). Forcing PCs to use Ready is a nice way to strip multiple/bonus attacks from them that I'm totally abusing next session...

 

[Quickleaf]

No, after. The Ready description specifies "... after the trigger finishes". There's also some language about Reactions only being Interrupts when explicitly stated.

Can you confirm that?

According to the Basic Rules description of Ready: When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round.

So the player is Readying an attack for when they see a goblin. The goblin becomes visible after it moves from behind the rafter into the bright light. This is before it shoots. Therefor the player takes their Readied attack. THEN (if still alive) the goblin gets to shoot.

EDIT: Also, I looked up the Basic Rules description of Reaction: Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else’s. The opportunity attack, described later in this chapter, is the most common type of reaction.
When you take a reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.

Nothing in there about reactions not interrupting actions unless explicitly stated. In fact, that last sentence seems to suggest otherwise.

I'd lower it a step. They'd always get the minimum cover.

So are you saying asymmetric cover is possible in the game without needing something specially designed for it (e.g. arrow slits)?

Do you have rules to support that? Or is it a personal ruling?

 

[Mallus]

Can you confirm that?

Nope. Can't recall where I came across it.

The goblin becomes visible after it moves from behind the rafter into the bright light. This is before it shoots. Therefor the player takes their Readied attack. THEN (if still alive) the goblin gets to shoot.

Actually, I'd probably rule it like this, too, depending on how many places the goblin could be hiding. Maybe call for a Perception check to shoot before the goblin goes. To my mind, "Ready" in this case primarily functions to allow an attack against a target moving between/popping out of cover. Going first is kinda gravy -- and not the real intent.

Nothing in there about reactions not interrupting actions unless explicitly stated. In fact, that last sentence seems to suggest otherwise.

Take a look at the text for "Counterspell" and "Shield". My understanding is that interrupt situations are rare in 5e and (usually) explicitly called out.

So are you saying asymmetric cover is possible in the game without needing something specially designed for it (e.g. arrow slits)?

The target sniping behind cover is always going to get some benefit, yes. A target sniping from a top shelf sniping position (like arrow slits) would get "full benefit".

Do you have rules to support that? Or is it a personal ruling?

Personal. I'm trying to up my "rulings mastery" now that my 5e campaign is in full swing (though on summer vacation hiatus tonight).

 

[Rabbitbait]

I think of it like a western. So as soon as you show yourself, those waiting shoot at you before you get a chance. This also means that someone else may be able to cover them etc.

But in terms of cover, I rule it in terms of what weapon they are using. Someone using a short or long bow need to completely step out to shoot, so have no cover. Someone with a heavy crossbow need to get somewhat out in order to aim and shoot with two arms, so 1/2 cover. Someone with a hand crossbow can just duck a head and head out to shoot, so 3/4 cover.

So if you hold a reaction then the chance of you hitting is dependent on the weapon your opponent is using.

All house rules of course....

 

[Shiroiken]

2) Moving from behind a rafter into bright light means a goblin becomes visible.

Correct. If you didn't have the area brightly lit, the goblin doesn't automatically become visible (DM's discretion, but I would compare Stealth vs. Perception).

3) When a goblin moves into position to shoot its bow, it loses all cover.

Explanation: There is no asymmetrical cover except for arrow slits or things similarly designed for such purpose.

Nonsense. The goblin could move their bow into position along the side of the rafter without exposing the majority of it's body, thus keeping 1/2 cover. You don't have to move out of square to attack around a corner.

 

[Coredump]

I talked with over with my 2 fellow players-who-are-also-DMs, and we reached this understanding...

1) Without a doubt AFTER shooting a goblin becomes visible. (D&D Basic Rules)

Not necessarily, they are just not hidden anymore. But they may not be visible...for example, they may be in heavy shadow.

2) Moving from behind a rafter into bright light means a goblin becomes visible.

True, but why would a goblin move that far, and why into bright light?

3) When a goblin moves into position to shoot its bow, it loses all cover.

Explanation: There is no asymmetrical cover except for arrow slits or things similarly designed for such purpose.

This makes no sense. What about shooting from behind a wall, etc.



There are just too many variable to know for sure what happens. It is reasonable that the players will see the goblins before the goblins can shoot, it is reasonable that they will only see them after they shoot. IF its dark enough, they may not even see them after they shoot. It completely depends on the specifics of the situation.