D&D 5E Char Ops forums: Something I wish hadn't come over.

I've seen suboptimizer attention seekers too.

I haven't played with them, but I've spoken to people who struck me as such, and have certainly heard gamer tales about them. Someone who chooses to make an underwater basketweaver and golf manager, and then not only insists that the other characters protect them as they journey through dangerous places (since they have no combat ability whatsoever), but further insists that the DM provide them with opportunities to exercise their peerless underwater basketweaving to solve problems or even "save the day."

People who want the story to deform to their interests are a problem no matter what those interests are. Charop threads don't *make* people behave that way, and they're certainly not the only thing that facilitates such behavior either.
 

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If only the latter were more common than the former. Of course, my DM experience is a small set to judge from I suppose! I do think it is a good distinction, however.

I've certainly played with both kinds of player. I absolutely agree that someone who seeks to dominate the action will make the game less fun for everyone else, whatever you call that playstyle. I guess my final point on this thread is that people who write or comment on guides or character optimization threads don't cause that kind of behavior, nor do they necessarily engage in it.
 

I have accidentally become the powergamer at my current table, and I feel like a twerp for it. I'm the only one who multi-classed or took feats. My Shadow Monk Assassin is walking all over the combat. Yeah, it's kind of cool to be able to "bamf" in and out of combat and deal ridiculous amounts of damage. But it makes me feel...dirty. As though I'm taking away the spotlight from the others.

This is my first foray into character optimization. It works. It works astoundingly well. This little Halfling is a complete ass-beater who deals damage and doesn't take any, who can deflect missiles and dodge AOEs. If I was part of a table where each PC was optimized, I wouldn't feel so grungy. But I do. I feel like "that guy," the one who has an untouchable ass-beater, who can't help but steal the spotlight, because he does. That's not cool. So I'm going to stop playing that character and see if I can't muck about with the new Ranger playtest.

I've been playing RPGs for 30 of my 42 years on this planet. I have never seen an example of a table accommodating a min-maxer which didn't end in nobody having fun but the optimizer. While I acknowledge that anecdotes aren't evidence, I've seen enough examples of this phenomenon - and now I've experienced it as an optimizer myself - that I cannot condone the practice. When you drill down through all the excuses, justifications, and apologetica, invariably the practice can be put down to two root drives in a player: 1. a desire to exploit rules loopholes to demonstrate cleverness; or 2. a desire to dominate the table by making a "better" or "best" build. Me, I fell into the first category. While I had no desire to exploit the rules, per se, I did seek intricate ways to get what I wanted from the rules which can only be called meta-gaming. Creating a kick-ass character became more important than what that character could bring to the team. (Other than kicking ass, of course.)

RPGs like D&D are an effort in collaborative storytelling. When a player deliberately engages in practices which will set his character significantly apart from - or, worse, above - the group, collaboration withers. The other characters will inevitably find themselves mere spear-carriers for the super-toon. Who has fun doing that?

I dig the calls for "everybody deserves to have a good time" in defense of min-maxers. I really do. But it's simply not practical. For one thing, why should any player be more entitled to an enjoyable game than any other? Especially if their behavior is disruptive? Is that fair to ask of the other players? People like to say "everyone should have a good time." However, practically speaking, that's incredibly rare even at the best of times. It's damn near impossible in the face of disruptive player behavior. While I hate to stamp on anyone's good time, as a DM it's incumbent on me to assure that, at my table, as many people as possible have a good time. That goes for the deliberate gimpers as well as the munchkins.

There's the main difference in opinion - "everybody deserves to have a good time" is an excellent goal at which to aim. We need to be content with "as many people as possible have a good time." The trick is to find that happy medium, accommodating as many play-styles as possible. I find that discussions of expectations before the first die is rolled to be the best method of avoiding disputes.

I will still engage in character optimization threads, because it's an enjoyable exercise. But I will no longer bring such a character to a table unless I know that table is populated by others doing the same thing.

Cheers,

Bob
 

I have accidentally become the powergamer at my current table, and I feel like a twerp for it. I'm the only one who multi-classed or took feats. My Shadow Monk Assassin is walking all over the combat. Yeah, it's kind of cool to be able to "bamf" in and out of combat and deal ridiculous amounts of damage. But it makes me feel...dirty. As though I'm taking away the spotlight from the others.

This is my first foray into character optimization. It works. It works astoundingly well. This little Halfling is a complete ass-beater who deals damage and doesn't take any, who can deflect missiles and dodge AOEs. If I was part of a table where each PC was optimized, I wouldn't feel so grungy. But I do. I feel like "that guy," the one who has an untouchable ass-beater, who can't help but steal the spotlight, because he does. That's not cool. So I'm going to stop playing that character and see if I can't muck about with the new Ranger playtest.
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That goes for the deliberate gimpers as well as the munchkins.

For the first: I'm sorry you feel you've damaged your group's experience. I'm especially sorry that you feel you need to abandon the character--do your fellow players feel the same? If this is just a matter of you "feeling dirty," when the character is both liked (in roleplay terms) and valued (in effectiveness terms) by your fellow players, it might be a disservice to them and yourself to retire the character out of hand. Also, don't forget that 5e tends to have...well, a very loose concept of "balance." What seems insanely powerful at one level can be weaksauce a few levels later; the Moon Druid comes to mind. Perhaps you've gotten lucky, perhaps you've hit a momentary sweetspot. Obviously, none of this--not even your group's feelings--should trump your own feeling son the matter, but...well, give it a thought, at least.

As for the second: Does optimization inherently mean munchkinism? What about, as others have said, optimizing within the limits of a concept, even if that concept is not optimal itself?
 
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Bob,

Can't you just use your Bamf! less frequently? Do you really need to roll a new character?

Honestly, in 5e the difference between optimized and normal is not very great. ("Sub-optimized" runs too great of a range to comment on.) It's optimized play that really makes a big difference.

I've played at many mixed tables and the biggest problem I've witnessed is when the optimizers get upset that others are doing it "wrong". As long as the optimizers have some basic social skills (the players, not the characters) I don't really see the problem.
 

For the first: I'm sorry you feel you've damaged your group's experience. I'm especially sorry that you feel you need to abandon the character--do your fellow players feel the same? If this is just a matter of you "feeling dirty," when the character is both liked (in roleplay terms) and valued (in effectiveness terms) by your fellow players, it might be a disservice to them and yourself to retire the character out of hand.

I plan to bring it up to the group next session. We'll see what they say.

Also, don't forget that 5e tends to have...well, a very loose concept of "balance." What seems insanely powerful at one level can be weaksauce a few levels later; the Moon Druid comes to mind. Perhaps you've gotten lucky, perhaps you've hit a momentary sweetspot. Obviously, none of this--not even your group's feelings--should trump your own feeling son the matter, but...well, give it a thought, at least.

I will, and I thank you for the advice. It's good to avoid acting precipitously.

As for the second: Does optimization inherently mean munchkinism? What about, as others have said, optimizing within the limits of a concept, even if that concept is not optimal itself?

I don't think it does, not inherently. I mean, everyone wants to max their prime stat. What "munchkin" means is a moving target, subjective even within a single person depending on mood and experience. For me, right now, "munchkin" is deliberately exploiting holes or soft spots in the rules to make a character which will hog the spotlight on game day. "Munchkin" stems from desire and intent, not actual fact. It's wanting to be Babe Ruth batting for the Bad News Bears. (You may have to Google that; I'm old.) Your definition will very definitely vary. :-)
 

The first thing I want to say is that "optimization" or "min/maxing" or whatever you want to call it isn't a new phenomenon. Back in the day, when the OGs (Original Gamers) used to walk Five Miles uphill in a snowstorm just for the privilege of getting their characters killed in Tomb of Horrors, there were players that optimized their characters.

I know. I was there. Now get off my lawn! :p

[T]he explosion of rules in 3e/3.5e to empower players allowed for a great deal of ... optimization that was previously difficult. In short, the types of optimizations changed immensely.

I saw it start with 2E, when skills were introduced.

And min/max, by itself, isn't annoying- just like "that guy" who wants to out Roleplay everyone else, isn't necessarily annoying. It all depends on what the group desires. If the group enjoys min/maxing, and the DM designs things for it, it works out perfectly.

I couldn't agree more.

Thanks!

Bob
 

Can't you just use your Bamf! less frequently? Do you really need to roll a new character?

I probably don't. I could probably manage my playstyle to better suit what I think is the table. First I need to talk to the table and assess expectations.

I've played at many mixed tables and the biggest problem I've witnessed is when the optimizers get upset that others are doing it "wrong". As long as the optimizers have some basic social skills (the players, not the characters) I don't really see the problem.

This is 100% true. Thank you for pointing it out!
 


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