D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

[TrippyHippy]

Merriam-Webster Online dictionary [with personal annotations]:

Warlord: a leader of a military group who is not officially recognized [by the rules of D&D5E] and who fights against other leaders, groups, or governments [in order to force their way back in to the D&D rules]

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[mellored]

What the hell is a Warlord?

Basicly, take the battlemaster maneuvers, bardic inspiration, and expand them to make a full class.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

What the hell is a Warlord?

A 4e PHB class with a substantial following, at least among 4e fans, some of whom feel it is not well-represented in 5e. It worked mostly by either (a) attacking things, and in so doing carving an opening for allies (figuratively or literally); (b) allowing allies to do things when it wasn't their turn (mostly reposition or attack); or (c) giving passive benefits, typically in the form of a "battlefield presence" (analogous to the abstracted mechanic from wargames, where "command" or "intel" units, or similar stuff, can make regular units more effective than normal, simply by being nearby.)

Also, though I can't see who said it because posting from my phone is terrible: I think it's profoundly unfair to say a 5e translation of the Warlord has to be overpowered...by using the escape numbers that mostly derive from the 4e version. Of COURSE that's going to be wrong; 4e works at a larger (and therefore fiber-grained) number scale than 5e does. Simply porting straight to 5e without carefully reconsidering the numbers involved would guarantee wonky, inappropriate conduction. Just like how porting 4e HP values straight to 5e wouldn't work. If you're going to seriously try to give "there should be a more fully dedicated 5e class for Warlords," I think the least you can do is avoid turning rattled-off, uncalculated spitball ideas into monstrous, hardline requirements that automatically and inherently make the suggestion untenable. Particularly when it's already possible to do some of the stuff you're talking about: Fighters (for themselves) and Bards can already give +dX to hit, and Paladins can give +Cha to saves to everyone within 10 feet all the time. For at least d8 dice, that's (on average) almost as good as *maximum* ability score (+4.5, vs. +5), and when it hits d10 it's *better.* So if the numbers are tweaked, the frequency controlled, and the effects kept reasonable, I really don't think there is as much of an issue as some people allege.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Let's go though all the PHB backgrounds... and make a concept of each.

I want to object to any use of 'Marshal' (it was such a sad class) but 'Borderlands Marshal' just works. I do object to using 'Battlemaster,' (it's already in use) how 'bout Battle Captain?

• Folk Hero
  • The common folk are inspired by him. 'nuff said.
  
  
• Hermit
  • Reclusive martial arts master? One focused more on military strategy than wire-fu. More Sun Tzu, but still a little Li Mu Bai.
• Urchin
  • Ye ol' plucky sidekick?

In my book, I could easily live with the following:

• A New Class.
• The Class focuses on Cha, then Int, maybe.
• The class is non-magical.
• The class gets most of its "nova damage potential" from buffs.
• The class does not grant others actions at will.
• The class can keep an ally going, including waking up an unconscious ally. The class does this without healing hit points.
• Archetypes: The class in general is an "Inspiring Leader."

My understanding is that that's not warlord enough for a lot of warlord fans.

I can see why, it does fall short on a few things:
- An at-will action-grant shouldn't be out of the question, it should just be limited on the sorts of actions granted.
- Restoring hps need to be an option. (just like a Cleric might never cast Cure Wounds, a Warlord might never use Inspiring Word)
- Inspiring Leader is on possible Warlord concept, though it's a solid one - a Warlord could instead (or also) be tactically focused for instance, or could be a source of inspiration, but not a leader.

Aside from that, though, not terrible.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

We do a mix of ToTM and grid... and no it's very much not the effect of TotM, not even seeing how that would matter. A Rogue with 35' movement can, using Cunning action as a dash movement move 110' total... if that's not enough to get out of the melee range of most creatures (especially if they are already engaged with another party member), not sure what is... and what exactly do you mean a specific reading of Cunning Action... it's pretty clear to me but what is the alternative?

You can Disengage OR Dash with Cunning Action, so you'd be mostly taking an OA every time you did as you suggest, and granting advantage on that OA because you're dashing IIRC. IF you can use Cunning Action during your split move, which isn't clear, then you can move up, attack, Disengage, and finish your 35' movement without being subjected to an OA. As I said, that's not a lot of distance you're putting, though I don't doubt that it can be enough in some cases.

How can a Rogue using the Mobile feat and Cunning Action not get away from the creature? It gets no OppAttk on him and he can dash as a bonus action on top of his regular movement...

I don't know about using Mobile. The rules lawyer in me says there's a difference between a 'Dash Action', and 'Cunning Action', which lets you 'Dash', but I think RAI likely is Mobile gives you super kiting. This is another thing with the TotM Effect, it sounds plausible until you put it on a map, at which point the PC is running 70' up to an enemy (no stealth involved) hitting said enemy, and running 70' away again, and there's zero chance of any retaliation? Well, its a fantasy game, but that's some serious kiting. 5e really has some pretty loopy combat rules when you start looking closely at them.

In any case, our rogue player has certainly not considered this, she's 79 and is a great player, but really has no interest in being that into tactics. She's got a 20 DEX and IS quite capable of putting some hurt on things, but what goes around comes around.

I'd also just say that in general monsters often do some pretty hefty damage in 5e. Not as much as PCs, but it is not at all unusual to have 80% of your hit points chomped off in a single hit. And monsters have tricks too, so its not like you can just run around kiting everything all day and being unscathed.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't think the shield is necessary, or Shield Mastery, it's just something you could do if you wanted to excel.

Weapon and a free hand just seems a little more intuitive or familiar a style than shield and a free hand.

To be a decent defensive fighter in 5E requires primarily one thing: a relatively small ego. Having multiple attacks and a high strength helps, but the primary thing you need is to not particularly care if someone else is scoring all of the DPR.

Part of the problem I'm seeing is with the multiple attack mechanic. Bonuses make them snowball, and magic weapons in 5e can have some crazy damage bonuses, just for one instance, so your ignore-DPR-for-this-other-option build can suddenly have his optimal choice become DPR again. At the same time, they don't deliver much damage when you can't use them - with an OA, for instance - so the 'threat' of an OA doesn't scale like it should.

TL;DR: I don't care if everything Cool can be incorporated into 5E. I just care that the things 5E does enable are Cool.

'Cool' is very subjective, of course. Not that opinions about genre are a lot less so.

 

[Minigiant]

I want to object to any use of 'Marshal' (it was such a sad class) but 'Borderlands Marshal' just works. I do object to using 'Battlemaster,' (it's already in use) how 'bout Battle Captain?

• Folk Hero
  • The common folk are inspired by him. 'nuff said.
• Hermit
  • Reclusive martial arts master? One focused more on military strategy than wire-fu. More Sun Tzu, but still a little Li Mu Bai.
• Urchin
  • Ye ol' plucky sidekick?

so...

• Acolyte
  • Divine Healer
    • A warrior which minor divine magic who combines in and mundane medicine for miraculous effects.
    • "He's bleeding from a blood vessel here. Put your finger int the wound here, cast cure wounds, then remove your finger in 3 seconds."
• Charlatan
  • Ringmaster
    • A warrior who has masters the arts of manipulation of emotion to cause others to be gripped by feeling of fear, awe, anger, confidence, or excitement.
• Criminal
  • Prince of Thieves
    • A warrior and trickster who can aid others less skilled than he in theft and assassination.
    • "Hey, Clanky. Didn't I tell you to hold that shoulder plate of that new armor of yours. And don't tiptop in those giant boots. Full steps."
• Entertainer/Gladiator
  • Exotic Weapon Master
    • A warrior who learned unconventional methods of combat and can use their knowledge to point out what others miss.
• Folk Hero
  • Beacon of Hope
    • A warrior whose mere presence inspires his allies to survive and fight on either by admiration or rival..
    • "As long as Sir Wayne can stand, I can too." "I'm not falling before that idiot Wayne."
• Guild Artisan
  • Master Weaponsmith
    • A warrior who knows weaponry from creation to application. They know the ins and outs of indivdual weapons to let others use weapons to their full potential.
• Hermit
  • Reclusive Teacher
    • A master of ancient techniques who can use ki to enforce his or her mind.
• Noble/Knight
  • Beacon of Hope... again
    • A warrior whose mere presence inspires his allies to survive and fight on either by admiration or rival..
    • "As long as Sir Wayne can stand, I can too." "I'm not falling before that idiot Wayne."
• Outlander
  • Borderlands Marshal
    • A guardian who keeps the team sharp and ready for ambushes.
• Sage
  • Arcane Captian
    • A warrior with minor arcane magic who can mix magic, weaponry, and coordination into a devastating force.
    • "Hit him with an ice spell. It will make his parry on the nonshield side slow."
• Sailor/Pirate
  • Captain of Fortune
    • A warrior who learns to take advantage of every lucky break he get and every jinx on the enemy
    • "The orc chieftain's visor is loose. He won't be able to parry overheads."
• Soldier
  • Combat Veteran
    • A master of battle who can teach his tricks earned from experience mid-battle.
    • "Try that shot I taught ya."
• Urchin
  • Loyal Cohort
    • A warrior who excels at fighting with others at his or her back and handling groups so others can deal with bigger threats.

So There... the warlord can be done with any background.


To me the strongest are:

Divine Healer (gets rid of the healing issue. It would be a 1/3 caster of divine magic)
Combat Veteran (giving other superiortity dice as well as using them yourself sounds cool. A fighter is the better fighter but the warlord could fuel him for bigger fights)
Beacon of Hope (The simple one.)
Arcane Captain (A warrior who whos how to survive a frien's fireball and pins the enemy into it)
Prince(ss) of Thieves/Knaves/Jacks (Just a cool idea from 4th. A trickster who speeds up the slow party members, stills the clumsy one, and hushes the noisy ones. Basically makes the dwarf not a walking hazard.)

 

[Imaro]

You can Disengage OR Dash with Cunning Action, so you'd be mostly taking an OA every time you did as you suggest, and granting advantage on that OA because you're dashing IIRC. IF you can use Cunning Action during your split move, which isn't clear, then you can move up, attack, Disengage, and finish your 35' movement without being subjected to an OA. As I said, that's not a lot of distance you're putting, though I don't doubt that it can be enough in some cases.

I realize you can Disengage or Dash with Cunning Action... that's why the Mobile feat is part of it. You don't have to use Cunning Action during your split move because you're not using it to disengage (though since it's a bonus action by the rules of the game I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed)... you're only using it for the movement. You aren't subjected to an OA due to the mobile feat...

I don't know about using Mobile.

The important parts of the feat for the purposes of this discussion are that it adds 10 to the rogue's movement and that hit or miss, as long as the rogue attacked the opponent said opponent cannot make an OA against him during the turn he attacked.

The rules lawyer in me says there's a difference between a 'Dash Action', and 'Cunning Action', which lets you 'Dash',...

Actually Cunning action let's you take the Dash action as a bonus action... it's fully stated right there in the ability.

... but I think RAI likely is Mobile gives you super kiting. This is another thing with the TotM Effect, it sounds plausible until you put it on a map, at which point the PC is running 70' up to an enemy (no stealth involved) hitting said enemy, and running 70' away again, and there's zero chance of any retaliation? Well, its a fantasy game, but that's some serious kiting. 5e really has some pretty loopy combat rules when you start looking closely at them.

I'm failing to see what's so unbelievable/loopy about it... especially in a thread about inspiration healing that brings people back from unconsciousness)... anyway I don't find it hard to believe since a big part of the archetype of the Rogue is being quick and darting in and out of combat.

In any case, our rogue player has certainly not considered this, she's 79 and is a great player, but really has no interest in being that into tactics. She's got a 20 DEX and IS quite capable of putting some hurt on things, but what goes around comes around.

It's not about just putting the hurt on something though, a good rogue isn't there when the hurt tries to get put on him, I want to argue it's almost the point of Cunning Action...

I'd also just say that in general monsters often do some pretty hefty damage in 5e. Not as much as PCs, but it is not at all unusual to have 80% of your hit points chomped off in a single hit. And monsters have tricks too, so its not like you can just run around kiting everything all day and being unscathed.

I didn't say it worked on everything, but it works pretty well in many situations, enough so that I find your description of the rogue going down every session totally contrary to what I've seen... Instead of it being because of TotM I think you hit on it above...maybe it's just a simple case of your player not being interested in tactics.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I like the idea of granting use of hit dice as an inspirational healing mechanic, 4e's HS was a darn good mechanic, and it can work here too, just use it only for this type of 'heal'. An Inspiring Word power would then allow a character to spend a die, with say +CHA bonus. The only flaw with it is how do you get it to scale.

 

[steeldragons]

Just have to go that liiil' extra bit OP on principle, huh?

The warlord using Inspiring Word to allow characters to spend HD in combat (or extra HD out of combat) is PRECISELY what I designed my warlord to do.

But the fact that there is no other way in the game to use an HD in combat isn't "enough?" The fact that this would be something completely unique to the warlord? They should throw in that "+ Cha" too and figure out how to make it scale?!

Not that it would be difficult to do that...It wouldn't. But why would you [the general "warlord fans" you] think that's necessary as opposed to the fact your warlord would be the only character who can do that isn't "special" or make it "powerful" enough?