D&D 5E Primeval Thule for 5th edition: Wizards I hope you are taking notes.

[mach1.9pants]

Oh primeval Thule is a sword and sorcery campaign setting, available in pathfinder, thirteenth age and now fifth edition flavours. I've not read it yet but as the PDF is mostly fluff, reviews that apply to the other versions are relevant to the 5e version, apart from the twenty percent or so that is crunch

 

[DEFCON 1]

Why would they be happy if I stopped buying their stuff and bought my material from another company?

You're playing D&D aren't you? That means you have others you are playing D&D with. And when you talk to other people about your Primeval Thule campaign, you'll be talking about playing D&D. The money they "lose" from you not buying any other WotC book (which technically isn't actually lost if you had no intention of buying them anyway) is made up by the money brought in by others taking your lead and playing the D&D game.

Or are you a believer that the OGL was a bad thing for WotC because they lost money on it? If you are, you're certainly not alone... the boards here have many folks that decry the OGL because it allowed people to play D&D without ever spending money on "WotC-released" D&D. But I don't see how that could be the case since you are advocating playing a "OGL equivalent" game (a game that would have been OGL released had 5E been opened to it.)

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

Im actually a bit confused. How is Sasquatch releasing a Primeval Thule 5e when there isnt a OGL/anything similar for it yet? Are they hedging that because they did Princes of the Apocalpyse its like a free card to create their own 5e stuff because they think the Wizards Lawyers wont target them over it? (Kinda like what Kobold Press did)

Might also have been part of the Princes of the Apocalypse deal.
As I look at it it seems like WOTC is taking the main profits from sales of Princes of the Apocalypse.
but part of their payment for doing Princes of the Apocalypse. for WOTC might be the right to publish some of their own 5e stuff.

 

[Corpsetaker]

Does Primeval Thule negate any need of the D&D game rule to play?

If it doesn't, then WotC will be happy even if you stop buying their stuff because you are playing their game and other folks that might come along and play with you might choose to buy more D&D stuff even after you have decided that you got everything you needed from WotC, and because it doesn't matter who buys what from who - people playing D&D of some kind means more chances that more new people hear about it and join in on the fun in one way or another.

I'm afraid your logic, as well as Defcon1's, doesn't make sense and requires specific things to happen. Let's look at why they don't make sense.

1: You are assuming I am the only one who may do this. There are lot's of people out there who are not happy with the current line up of products and who have gone elsewhere to get it.

2: You assume I play, and the people I game with, play with other groups and/or look for new gaming groups to introduce the game to. We have already made our one time purchase of the corerules and I can promise you that D&D wouldn't survive on just that if loads of other people did that as well.

3: You assume that all Wizard's wants is for everyone just to play their game so they can high five each other and call it a day. If this was the case then we wouldn't see anything past the core three. They are a business and they want to make money, that is why we have seen a direction change in the way D&D is ran.

4: If we are getting interested in Primeval Thule then why would anyone in the group start buying Wizard's products when we are playing in a world where much of it may not apply? "Hey guys let's run Primeval Thule." "Sounds good, I'm going to go and pick up Out of the Abyss." That makes no sense at all.

Bottom line is, unless we are paying Wizards each time we use their rules, they would not benefit whatsoever if we went to another company for all of our gaming needs.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

1: You are assuming I am the only one who may do this.

No, I'm not. I am assuming that anyone not buying more WotC D&D materials is still someone who has potentially bought some, like the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual, and that each new person you play with will form their own opinion on what to buy rather than simply parrot yours.

2: You assume I play, and the people I game with, play with other groups and/or look for new gaming groups to introduce the game to. We have already made our one time purchase of the corerules and I can promise you that D&D wouldn't survive on just that if loads of other people did that as well.

Yes, I assume that people partaking of a social game occasionally socialize that game with new people... if that is a bad assumption, call me hopeful and leave it at that. As for D&D surviving - you realize there is a reason that WotC is focusing on D&D as a brand rather than just as a table-top game, right? Video Game does well? D&D does well. Movie makes some cash? D&D made some cash. Someone, somewhere, is playing D&D? D&D survives.

3: You assume that all Wizard's wants is for everyone just to play their game so they can high five each other and call it a day.

No, I don't.

I assume that their business plan doesn't rely on constant flow of cash generated by table-top game components alone, because it obviously doesn't given they aren't just pumping out books for people to buy.

4: If we are getting interested in Primeval Thule then why would anyone in the group start buying Wizard's products when we are playing in a world where much of it may not apply?

What you have just said, if true, would have meant that 3PP products for 3.5 would not have been successful for anyone because "Official products only" and "Core only" were two very common limitations I saw applied to people's campaigns.

"Hey guys let's run Primeval Thule." "Sounds good, I'm going to go and pick up Out of the Abyss." That makes no sense at all.

You say it doesn't make sense, but I could actually find you a link if I cared to try (I don't, as I have nothing to prove to you) of a map of this one dude's campaign world which is actually Primeval Thule + Eberron + Forgotten Realms + Mystara + Golarion + probably others I can't remember, all arranged into a single game world by treating each different game world as just a different cluster of countries/continents on the same planet.

Gamers constantly adapt one thing to another thing, just to get those things they happen to have catch their eye into the game they like playing. So it's not "we're in Thule? Sweet, I'll grab Out of the Abyss!" but rather "Hey, cave crawling and demon cults trying to bring big nasty demons into the world? Sounds cool. I'm gonna adapt that to Primeval Thule."

Bottom line is, unless we are paying Wizards each time we use their rules, they would not benefit whatsoever if we went to another company for all of our gaming needs.

Evidence strongly suggests otherwise... as do the actions of WotC in bringing other companies into the mix intentionally. If they wanted you buying WotC and nothing else, they wouldn't be even remotely accepting of outside license.

No, they just want as many people to play D&D of some kind so that D&D has as much buzz as possible so that other D&D brand endeavors have the greatest possible chance of success - even if that means some folks don't buy anything but the basics from WotC and get all their adventures and campaign setting materials elsewhere.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Bottom line is, unless we are paying Wizards each time we use their rules, they would not benefit whatsoever if we went to another company for all of our gaming needs.

Whereas your poor assumption is that WotC actually cares about your [Corpsetaker's] money. Which they don't. They don't care or need your [specifically your] money. Any one individual's cash matters nothing to them. If it did... we would have seen them do and release every single thing that people on these boards have clamored about over the last decade with their ridiculous refrains of "I want to give Wizards my money but they won't take it!!!"

For YEARS during 4E people complained they couldn't get any back catalogue materials. They bitched and moaned about WotC and how they were "sitting on a goldmine!" and that they "have all this cash to give!" but that WotC wouldn't take it. But it was only on the path towards 5E did they ever bother to do so.

For the past year we've had people DECRYING the fact that WotC refused to release new splatbook material and that they wanted to spend their money on D&D. But it's only now a full year and a half later that they finally are doing so.

If WotC really cared about the money demands of any one individual, don't you think they'd be all about making sure that person was getting what they wanted exactly how they wanted it? Of course they would. But... they're not. All they care about is that the game is healthy. And that people are playing it. Or even... that people are playing ANYTHING. Which is why they finally did release all the previous edition material in the first place. Because people who game [game ANYTHING] begat other people who game. Which is all that matters. If gaming as a hobby is healthy... then D&D will be healthy. Because gamers will oftentimes try and play D&D.

And thus the "threats" of any one individual such as yourself... how WotC better "learn their lesson here!" or else you're "spending your money elsewhere!"... are nothing but echoes in the wind.

You aren't that important Corpsetaker. Not to WotC and their top-down view of the hobby. Sorry!

 

[Shasarak]

For YEARS during 4E people complained they couldn't get any back catalogue materials. They bitched and moaned about WotC and how they were "sitting on a goldmine!" and that they "have all this cash to give!" but that WotC wouldn't take it. But it was only on the path towards 5E did they ever bother to do so.

For the past year we've had people DECRYING the fact that WotC refused to release new splatbook material and that they wanted to spend their money on D&D. But it's only now a full year and a half later that they finally are doing so.

So what I take away from this is, yes WotC does want your money, but you need to complain long and loud enough that the R&D can have something to show to the pointy heads in the Accounts department.

 

[redrick]

Hey man, if Primeval Thule is awesome and there are things Wizards could take from it to improve their own products, lets hope they are taking notes! No problem with learning from the failures and successes of others.

On the other hand, Primeval Thule is a campaign setting, so it's not really a comparable product to the APs that Wizards has been releasing so far. Might be interesting to see how it compares to the Sword Coast book coming out later this fall.

As far as Wizards being happy to just have you playing D&D 5e, I think they've more or less gone on the record as saying that is their main concern. If we're playing D&D 5e in some version or other, that is a plus for them. Sure, they need to sell tons of AP books to keep making them, and I'm sure they'd be thrilled if every group bought a copy of every new book they released, but it can't be a must for their business plan. Otherwise, why would they have bothered including so much build-your-own material in the MM and DMG?

I haven't bought a single adventure path book from Wizards so far. I have the starter set, the core books, and the Deluxe DM Screen. (Which I don't use because it's too big for our table.) Haven't given a dollar to Wizards since I bought that screen, and before that, the DMG. All of our games are homebrew or adventures from other editions. On the other hand, we've had 6 people totally new to D&D sit in with our group, one of whom is now a full-time player and spent the other night talking about how excited he is for the D&D movie. 3 others have repeatedly expressed interest to play again. Since getting our current group together, two of the players decided to try their hands at DM'ing, so each purchased their own MM's and DMGs.

I think it can take a while to convert a casual player to a full-time D&D consumer, so these are seeds that get planted long before they eventually blossom. After all, you don't need anything from Wizards other than the basic rules and a quick glance at your friend's copy of the PHB when it comes time to level up. But then you decide you want to DM, or move to a different city or neighborhood and want to start a new group, or you want to introduce your friends or your kids, and you're buying your own kit. So that's why it's important to Wizards, above all else, that people just keep playing.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Does it change up the classes at all? Magic is supposed to be "dangerous and rare" in Thule, which doesn't make a lot of sense when every single class but the barbarian has at least one archetype that casts spells with zero consequences and no chance of being pulled screaming into the abyss by some tentacle monster you lose control over. IMO, D&D rules just dont work for that type of setting.

 

[Hand of Evil]

What is a Primeval Thule?

It is a campaign setting of a Robert E Howard Conan type world, it is primeval with ice age fauna, Lovecraft old ones, and cults, such as Set. Mankind is mostly barbarian, Atlantis has fallen but outpost remain trying to hold on to their once great glory. Civilization is limited to a few city states.


As it is available for 5e, Pathfinder and 13th Age, it is almost an universal setting.