D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

  • I want a 5E Warlord

    Votes: 139 45.9%
  • Lemmon Curry

    Votes: 169 55.8%

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Works at the current warlord-build for the fighter works at level 5. But the progression of spell slots would make keeping up with the cleric or any full caster impossible even if the caster only uses half of their slots on it.
Well damage avoidance automatically scales.
at-will bonus AC makes a goblin miss for 5 damage * 20 combat rounds = 50HP
at-will bonus AC makes a a dragon miss for 20 damage * 20 combat rounds = 400 HP.

But to continue your calculations... at level 20...
level 20 caster using all his slots on cure wounds / mass cure wounds (20 stat).
40d8 + 9 * 5 = 225 * 4 allies = 900 cure mass wounds.
31d8 + 13 * 5= 204.5 cure wounds.
= 1,105

20th level with healer and inspiring leader feats, and 20 cha.
1d6+4+20 HP * 4 allies = 110
5+20 THP * 4 allies= 100

+400 at-will bonus AC
= 610

pretty short...

Let's see..
inspiring word = +cha for each hit dice spent = 5 * 20 hit dice * 4 allies = 400
= 1010


That's pretty good IMO. (10% difference).

A warlord with at-will +to ac, healer-like feature, inspiring leader-like feature, and +cha to each hit die spent is pretty close to on par with the healing from a caster.

Though obviously you should be able to trade some of that for offense. Like inspiring word might be in a sub-class, and +ac die can be used as +to-hit die.
 
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and yet, someone can come sit at my table at my FLGS and not only eat a pineapple or mushroom pizza, but force me to at the same tables....

How are they forcing you?

When I DM, I don't allow dwarves for story reasons. If someone comes to the table with a dwarf PC, I say "Your dwarf has heard the call of his King and marches to his homeland. Make another PC." If they don't like it, they can leave.

If your group doesn't want warlords at the table, they can ban them. Unless they are running AL, that's how it goes.
 

and yet, someone can come sit at my table at my FLGS and not only eat a pineapple or mushroom pizza, but force me to at the same tables....

I was going to say the food anology doesn't work.. but I think it just clicked in my head...

my niece can't bring nuts, or peanut butter to school because 1 of 8 kids in her class is allergic (like deathly)... I know from a few years ago when a friend dated a girl who was very badly allergic how bad it could be (he kissed her after eating a bag of nuts on a buss ride to her college and sent her to the ER). It isn't just a preference, it's a safty thing.

People who dislike the warlord don't act like people who dislike mushrooms, "Hey I don't like them, but I don't care if you eat them." they act like people deathly allergic to nuts, "No don't bring them in the same room as me or I might get very ill and maybe even die"

the problem is they are the people who dislike mushrooms pretending to be the people deathly allergic to nuts... "Get it away it' will contaminate my stuff, and that is the worst thing I can imagine"
 

Not lik'n it. Not because of the proportion, though it's probably not good, but because of the implied inflexibility on the warlord side.
I didn't mean to imply inflexibililty.

I'm thinking things like 1/turn you could use your reaction to turn a hit into a miss, or a miss into a hit.

That's flexible. Offense or defense.

Bear or (which support class haven't I covered yet)
Polymorph is a great support spell.
Arguably too good, since you get bigger animals without scaling the slot.

summoning a magical warhorse (paladins don't actually do that anymore, do they)
They can, as a spell.

Rather like they almost did with Psionics-as-magic? Wouldn't bother me. 'Some say' is always a great natural-language way to put forth an explanation with out even the appearance of making it a rule.
Good to hear.

I think that would solve the major hurdle. Let each player/table decide if warlord inspiration is supernatural or not.
 

That's not what I saw I'm A Banana write. He said you have pick between:

1.) An inclusive HP model which supports multiple interpretations;
2.) A Warlord with verbal HP restoration.

One of these things has to be "optional" material.

What you call "logical yoga" is actually just him identifying a conflict of interest. I'm not actually sure that you and he have any fundamental disagreement, since you've been clear that your vision of the Warlord is optional material for the Advanced Game. You could just say, "Sure, the Warlord I'm envisioning is incompatible with the version of 5E that you prefer," and I suspect he'd just agree.

I think that's pretty fair. The conversation would shift from "lets try to make a warlord that doesn't presume non-mystical inspirational healing" to "lets chat about if it's smart for WotC to produce a class for a group using a particular optional rule." I could think of a few situations where WotC might, indeed, opt to do that - like if that optional rule featured prominently in a campaign or adventure. Forex, if they ever did an adventure set in a nonmagical world, or in FR on one of the three or four times every couple of years when something bad happens to the current goddess of magic (;)), they might explore non-magical combat healing. Or when they do DL, they might opt to support a more explicitly narrative/inspiration model of HP to fit its strong narrative vibe a bit more closely (and, in the War of the Lance, the relative paucity of divine power), and might explore what narrative HP would look like. Hell, DL would even have the massive army battles that a strict 4e warlord flavor would love. It would be a very comfortable fit!

Such a class would be freed from one of the main constraints currently upon it: that it be acceptable to different HP models. If you say something like, "This setting/adventure path/whatever uses THIS HP model" up front, then you can make a class that uses it, too. The only question would be: would the audience who doesn't like that HP model embrace this setting/adventure path/whatever to begin with? It's not the most inclusive model, but WotC probably has better data than I do on what portion of the audience actually finds inspirational HP to be a dealbreaker.

And, for the record, in the right context, there's no objection I have to inspirational HP, either. It's just not my preferred default mode, so forcing a game to adopt it or not based on the availability of a particular class is a little like, say, publishing an Aeronaut class and saying, "Hey, if you don't want turn-of-the-century aviation in your D&D, just don't use the class." I can run a D&D game perfectly fine without presuming turn-of-the-century aviation, so taking space in a book otherwise about classes and character types that only rely on the assumptions of the standard game, and saying, "Also, aeronauts!" seems like an issue. Hell, maybe not though. :p

In fact, the objection to warlords isn't entirely different in kind from the objection to monks: the thing they assume isn't necessarily a safe assumption. Monks have the weight of every D&D edition behind them (and 1e and 3e as core), and don't take anything away from the game when they're added (adding them expands your scope without costing you anything other than a more limited scope), so they've got a bit of an easier time of it compared to warlords, who only have one edition, and who invalidate the idea of wound-based HP if you have one at your table.
 
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Well, the mastermind rogue is a "master of tactics" which lets him grant the help action to an ally in 30 ft as a bonus action.

Looks like everyone is getting the warlords toys now..
 

Well damage avoidance automatically scales.
at-will bonus AC makes a goblin miss for 5 damage * 20 combat rounds = 50HP
at-will bonus AC makes a a dragon miss for 20 damage * 20 combat rounds = 400 HP.

But to continue your calculations... at level 20...
level 20 caster using all his slots on cure wounds / mass cure wounds (20 stat).
40d8 + 9 * 5 = 225 * 4 allies = 900 cure mass wounds.
31d8 + 13 * 5= 204.5 cure wounds.
= 1,105

20th level with healer and inspiring leader feats, and 20 cha.
1d6+4+20 HP * 4 allies = 110
5+20 THP * 4 allies= 100

+400 at-will bonus AC
= 610

pretty short...

Let's see..
inspiring word = +cha for each hit dice spent = 5 * 20 hit dice * 4 allies = 400
= 1010


That's pretty good IMO. (10% difference).

A warlord with at-will +to ac, healer-like feature, inspiring leader-like feature, and +cha to each hit die spent is pretty close to on par with the healing from a caster.

Though obviously you should be able to trade some of that for offense. Like inspiring word might be in a sub-class, and +ac die can be used as +to-hit die.

Made a mistake. Healer and inspiring leader are short-rest. so..

(110+100)*3 = 630 HP
+400 at-will AC
= 1030

That's ~2%.


+Cha for each hit dice would be too much for a base class. but let's see what the "life cleric" sub-class adds...
Discipline of life: 2*22 spell+89 spell levels = 133
CD: 5*20 = 100
Blessed Healer: 133 (same as before)
Supreme healing: 40*3.5 * 4 allies (mass cure wounds) + 31*3.5 = 668.5
= 1,034.5

+Cha per HD would keep up nicely, until supreme healing.

Maybe max HD spent at high levels?
20 dice * 3.5 (d8) * 4 allies = 280
too small.

Double HD?
20 dice * 4.5 (d8) * 4 allies = 360

Double HD and Con?
20 * 7.5 (16 con) * 4 allies = 600

So... a sub-class that had +Cha to each hit die. The double the HD gained at high level. Should fit pretty well.
The extra 60 HP would be a mid-level sub-class feature. Like restoration (which wouldn't take a slot).

Edit: Or perhaps a "allies can't fall unconscious while they can see and hear you. They still make death saving and can die as normal" would be a good match.
 
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Honest question about the Warlord from a total n00b - wanted to play one in 4th but never got to, and mostly speaking from a 3rd Ed. background:

Haters don't like "shouting away wounds", and supporters counter with "hit points are not meat". Both arguments seem fair.

Core game already has Battlemaster maneuvers, which were supposed to replicate this playstyle (though there's argument whether this does an adequate job). But there's also the Inspirational Leader feat which no one really seems to have a problem with, though it's effectively "shouting hit points onto people".

Wouldn't a potential Warlord fix be a second feat with a prerequisite (not common in 5th, but precedent with the Deep Gnome magic)? The upgraded feat would allow people to non-magically inspire people mid-combat with temporary hit points to reflect morale and willingness to fight, but not "yell wounds closed" in a way that breaks suspension of disbelief.

The same could be done for advanced Battlemaster maneuvers, given via feat with a prerequisite of a certain size superiority dice. Fighters get an extra feat or two anyway, so regular Fighters could focus on stats while a Warlord would have those two missing pieces instead.
 

Honest question about the Warlord from a total n00b - wanted to play one in 4th but never got to, and mostly speaking from a 3rd Ed. background:

Haters don't like "shouting away wounds", and supporters counter with "hit points are not meat". Both arguments seem fair.

Core game already has Battlemaster maneuvers, which were supposed to replicate this playstyle (though there's argument whether this does an adequate job). But there's also the Inspirational Leader feat which no one really seems to have a problem with, though it's effectively "shouting hit points onto people".

Wouldn't a potential Warlord fix be a second feat with a prerequisite (not common in 5th, but precedent with the Deep Gnome magic)? The upgraded feat would allow people to non-magically inspire people mid-combat with temporary hit points to reflect morale and willingness to fight, but not "yell wounds closed" in a way that breaks suspension of disbelief.

The same could be done for advanced Battlemaster maneuvers, given via feat with a prerequisite of a certain size superiority dice. Fighters get an extra feat or two anyway, so regular Fighters could focus on stats while a Warlord would have those two missing pieces instead.

There are two issues there:
1) healing vs buffing
2) feat access

Regarding issue #1, granting temporary HPs is a buff, and not healing, and buffing is typically most effective when it's used before combat.

Regarding issue #2, feats are fewer and more far between in 5e. Taking both Inspiring Leader and another feat to achieve the desired level of functionality (functionality, not power), means not achieving the desired level of functionality until at least 6th level.
 

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