D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

[I'm A Banana]

That basic need for the Warlord to be true to concept is still fundamentally true. The problem is not with that, however, as the HP mechanics in the PH /do/ support that model of hps just fine.

They also supoprt the model of hp's as wounds just fine.

In fact, the "standard" description of damage includes both wounds and inspiration (though the rules don't take a hard side on it).

You have yet to fully articulate that model to me in a way that convinces me it's as utterly incompatible with the concept of the Warlord as you seem to think.

For instance, how does it explain Second Wind, which requires no time and no mundane healing gear to restore hps?

I went into this above, but Second Wind has a few key limitations. The most directly relevant is that an unconscious character can't activate Second Wind. If a warlord couldn't heal someone at 0 hp (but could perhaps ennable such a creature to use some die hard mechanic), that could keep instep with the narration of wounds.

And, if it is OK in this model to have wounds that have received very basic mundane treatment and a little rest restore all hps, even though the wounds remain, then clearly there are hit-points being restored that to not represent literal healing (the wounds haven't disappeared), the faster the HP restoration, the greater proportion - /and/ - if temp hps from inspiration also work in this model, then why is there any trouble at all with inspiration restoring hps without actually healing wounds?

Because, again, "healed enough to not affect you" is not he same as "completely healed." There is healing going on even if the wound hasn't vanished - specifically, some small amount that makes the wound not lethal anymore. A potentially lethal wound does need to be turned into NOT potentially lethal. Doing that without something supernatural requires time (rolling a 20 on a death save is "mystical," for instance), and inspiration doesn't cut it for a narrative explanation of that. If it did, "shout your wounds closed" would make some sense, but everyone seems to be in agreement that it really doesn't.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think that might be intentional...

A warlord, as least as most people here have discussed him, is pretty much useless without his team. There is no class right now in 5e that even remotely comes close to that. A battlemaster alone can still fight well, a bard alone can still use magic, a mastermind alone can still sneak and stab. They aren't reliant on giving bonuses to other players to do something. That means that they have to make a choice when it comes to an action, buffing isn't a no-brainer. Spend my superiority die to give the barbarian an extra hit or use it myself to trip a foe? Use my concentration to cast stoneskin on the fighter or fly on myself? Do I give the ranger advantage with a bonus action, or use it disengage with cunning action?

Most of the warlord stuff that gets discussed makes the decision point not "Do I help an ally or do something myself?" but rather "What buff do I give my ally?" I mean, most of the hypothetical warlord powers they can spend a die on are vastly superior to "attack the foe myself". A warlord can always be doing something more interesting than "just attack". No other class is like that (caveat: casting a cantrip is the magical equivalent to "just attack"; what you do in lieu of a better spell choice). If the warlord ALWAYS has a better option than "just attack", he's not balanced against any other class who has even soft limits (spell slots, x/rest powers, dice pools, point pools, etc). There should probably be a time when the warlord says "I'm going to save my ability for when I need it, I'll attack with my weapon".

I'm thinking WotC's opinion is that cheerleading isn't enough of a role for a single class, but something every class should be able to do if it wants to. Moreover, I think WotC might be hinting that "support only" is against 5e's design philosophy; everyone should be good at something rather than just making other people better at anything.

Well, I don't think 'cheerleading' is particularly the one thing that warlords do, necessarily. I could imagine a solo warlord. He's out there talking up his plans, bargaining, carefully planning out his moves, maybe inspiring himself a times, and just doing all the stuff that any character can do. If he's a decent fighter then he can fight, use his tactical abilities, etc. ALL of his abilities might not be useful, but a lone bard can't use ALL of his abilities either to full effect. Characters are after all intended to do certain things well and other things not as well or not at all, and its unusual for any character actually operate alone on a regular almost full-time basis. A warlord left to his own devices for a while should be OK.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

They also supoprt the model of hp's as wounds just fine.

In fact, the "standard" description of damage includes both wounds and inspiration (though the rules don't take a hard side on it).

I think we will all agree that being wounded, physically, is A way to lose hit points, and that the total loss of all hit points by a character must at some level represent a (potentially) fatal injury, or else why would the character be dying? OTOH its equally clear that hit points are not all wounds, or how would hit dice work, or second wind, or etc?

Warlords should work fine in the standard assumptions of 5e, they inspire their allies, which helps them overcome their fatigue, conquer their fears, restores their luck, faith, and confidence, etc. all of which make them physically harder to defeat once more and less close to receiving that fatal wound.

Certainly you could find corner cases where inspirational healing seems 'odd', the unharmed fighter falls off the cliff and lands at the bottom with 0 hit points, the warlord inspires him to get up. Its a bit of a corner case, but you can STILL imagine that things like luck are involved. The character that is restored to full hit points from 0 during a battle where he's clearly been lying wounded and dying on the ground. OK, its a little less than totally clear here what's happening, but it could STILL mean the character is now wounded, but so filled with inspiration and luck that he's harder than ever to stop. Never in all of D&D have the numbers ever exactly precisely represented one fixed thing.

I went into this above, but Second Wind has a few key limitations. The most directly relevant is that an unconscious character can't activate Second Wind. If a warlord couldn't heal someone at 0 hp (but could perhaps ennable such a creature to use some die hard mechanic), that could keep instep with the narration of wounds.

But yet again, what's wrong with a 0 hit point character being talked back into action? I don't see anything 'out of step' between that and 'wounds', which again cannot possibly represent ALL of hit points, and that's all the leeway that's needed.

Because, again, "healed enough to not affect you" is not he same as "completely healed." There is healing going on even if the wound hasn't vanished - specifically, some small amount that makes the wound not lethal anymore. A potentially lethal wound does need to be turned into NOT potentially lethal. Doing that without something supernatural requires time (rolling a 20 on a death save is "mystical," for instance), and inspiration doesn't cut it for a narrative explanation of that. If it did, "shout your wounds closed" would make some sense, but everyone seems to be in agreement that it really doesn't.

The fighter stands up, pulls his belt tight and leaps back into the fray. Is he still 'dying' at some level? Maybe, but REAL LIFE is filled with examples of heroes who leapt back into battle with lethal wounds, only to drop dead minutes or even hours later, or men who were treated for "I can't understand how he stayed alive, let alone fighting like that". Its never exactly really clear what is and isn't lethal, or what it takes to make one into the other, especially not in a fantasy game where just BELIEVING that you're not dying may well be enough to make it true.

 

[Rygar]

I think we will all agree that being wounded, physically, is A way to lose hit points, and that the total loss of all hit points by a character must at some level represent a (potentially) fatal injury, or else why would the character be dying? OTOH its equally clear that hit points are not all wounds, or how would hit dice work, or second wind, or etc?

Warlords should work fine in the standard assumptions of 5e, they inspire their allies, which helps them overcome their fatigue, conquer their fears, restores their luck, faith, and confidence, etc. all of which make them physically harder to defeat once more and less close to receiving that fatal wound.

Certainly you could find corner cases where inspirational healing seems 'odd', the unharmed fighter falls off the cliff and lands at the bottom with 0 hit points, the warlord inspires him to get up. Its a bit of a corner case, but you can STILL imagine that things like luck are involved. The character that is restored to full hit points from 0 during a battle where he's clearly been lying wounded and dying on the ground. OK, its a little less than totally clear here what's happening, but it could STILL mean the character is now wounded, but so filled with inspiration and luck that he's harder than ever to stop. Never in all of D&D have the numbers ever exactly precisely represented one fixed thing.


But yet again, what's wrong with a 0 hit point character being talked back into action? I don't see anything 'out of step' between that and 'wounds', which again cannot possibly represent ALL of hit points, and that's all the leeway that's needed.



The fighter stands up, pulls his belt tight and leaps back into the fray. Is he still 'dying' at some level? Maybe, but REAL LIFE is filled with examples of heroes who leapt back into battle with lethal wounds, only to drop dead minutes or even hours later, or men who were treated for "I can't understand how he stayed alive, let alone fighting like that". Its never exactly really clear what is and isn't lethal, or what it takes to make one into the other, especially not in a fantasy game where just BELIEVING that you're not dying may well be enough to make it true.

It's not a corner case, it's the vast majority of the game. "Hit", "Damage", "Cure Wounds", "Potion of Healing", etc, these aren't ambiguous terms. Interpreting HP as anything but health causes pretty much the whole game to become nonsense as all of the words used to describe the game stop meaning what they actually mean. That's the problem with the Warlord, I roll "To Hit" or "Attack", I succeed, then I deal "Damage", if the next step in the series is "Warlord talks to you and you regain all HP" then some portion of this series becomes nonsense. Either I didn't actually succeed in my attack and I didn't actually deal damage, or I didn't actually regain all of my HP, one of those two things must be true. Both of those things cannot be true. It's a contradiction.

I also have to point out, as I've seen it a few times in this thread, there are two points in D&D where the numbers of precisely represented one fixed thing. In Third Edition there are a number of references in the Core that explicitly define HP as health, IIRC even in the appendix. In Fourth Edition HP can only be fatigue, as there's no other way to explain the events in the game unless HP's are fatigue.

 

[CapnZapp]

The way the new rogue subclass mastermind gets help another as a bonus action, I now believe the designers have no intent adding a 4E style Warlord to the game.

There is and will be warlordy abilities and features, but not packaged the way 4e packaged them.

 

[ZickZak]

Let s just make a class who can heal same as cleric, but non-magical, do damage same as fighter, have inspirations and skills like bard, Help as a free action with 300 yards range and have battlemasters maneuvers with 9 superior dice regenerating per round where every maneuver cast time is "one attack", making it able to use 3 maneuvers per round at level 11.
Only way to stop these threads where people want everything the best on one class 24/7 cause why not.

 

[mellored]

Let s just make a class who can heal same as cleric, but non-magical, do damage same as fighter, have inspirations and skills like bard, Help as a free action with 300 yards range and have battlemasters maneuvers with 9 superior dice regenerating per round where every maneuver cast time is "one attack", making it able to use 3 maneuvers per round at level 11.
Only way to stop these threads where people want everything the best on one class 24/7 cause why not.

Hyperbole much?

I've run the numbers. It's entirely possible to give everyone what they want (at least so far as i've understood what everyone wants) in a balanced manner.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Let s just make a class who can heal same as cleric, but non-magical, do damage same as fighter, have inspirations and skills like bard, Help as a free action with 300 yards range and have battlemasters maneuvers with 9 superior dice regenerating per round where every maneuver cast time is "one attack", making it able to use 3 maneuvers per round at level 11.
Only way to stop these threads where people want everything the best on one class 24/7 cause why not.

or we could make a class that starts with 2-3d4 that come back on a long rest, at level 4 make it on a short rest, and add and increase dice as we level... have those dice fuil thing similar to manuvers and bardic inspiration, and make a maneuver that can be used to heal... give them a 2nd attack at 6th level and some cool aura like abilities... that would be good

 

[Remathilis]

So... Prestige class warlord. Discuss.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

The way the new rogue subclass mastermind gets help another as a bonus action, I now believe the designers have no intent adding a 4E style Warlord to the game.

There is and will be warlordy abilities and features, but not packaged the way 4e packaged them.

Something I mentioned in that other thread that I think is pertinent here:

I think it's interesting, and should be pointed out, that this one ability is the entire 3rd-level combat feature for a subclass. Because it is quite potent. Anyone toying around with home-brew classes that are built around helping/bolstering allies should keep that in mind when weighing what all else they are giving them...