D&D 5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

[SuperZero]

Tolerance is better than persecution.

...

I certainly haven't seen anyone at my table jumping through hoops to play gay PCs qua gay.

Imagine that.

They're more interested in playing carnivorous lightning-breathing reptiles with a death wish, soul-selling criminal warlocks, amnesiac barbarians who were literally raised by wolves, and 6'6" gangly insectile bug-men who can run 50 mph under ideal conditions.

I can't help but notice that none of these characters has a stated orientation.

So, I don't think it was a hasty generalization I was making and if you took it that way then now you know I didn't mean it that way and we can move on to you (hopefully) answer my question.

I'm having flashbacks here...
Not that I owe you any answer, but I did answer your question. You quoted me doing so.

I assume you're not suggesting anything about me. Specifics of who and what you're talking about would be helpful.

I have seen "disagreement" used to describe a person's bigotry. It's oddly common among anti-gay folk. They say nasty things, and any objection is met with "Why are you being so mean just because I disagree with you?"

For my part, I have seen a great deal of ends justifying the means, and justifications for authoritarian rules, to squelch speech people disagree with lately. The term "liberalism," which I am not using politically in this context to refer to a "side" of the political scale or political party, used to mean something different on speech topics. It used to mean that the best answer to speech we don't like is speech we do like. That the marketplace of ideas is the only solution ever needed for speech we don't like, because the best opinions naturally rise to the top. The goal therefore is to simply respond, to inform and persuade as best we can, without ever trying to pressure others to not speak, or to deny forums for them to voice their opinion, or to defame or belittle or dehumanize the speaker instead of responding to the content of their speech, or to ever say or imply that dissent itself is unwelcome or a problem.

"This should be avoided" does not in any way imply "This should be illegal."

But maybe I shouldn't have to have the same arguments all the time.

 

[Lanefan]

Holy thread explosion, Batman!

I still maintain those who downplay (or don't want, or don't allow) romance and-or sex* and all that goes with it in their games are really missing out, and their campaigns are shallower for it.

* - best case being between any combination and-or number of consenting individuals

Way upthread there's passing mention of disabled PC or NPC adventurers; it occurs to me the existence of the "Heal" and-or "Regeneration" spells would in many cases make this a rather moot point.

Lan-"thought I had more to say but I guess not this time"-efan

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but it's not going to look like the European Middle Ages anyway.

First of all, essentially nobody knows anything about the European Middle Ages.

Don't you think it might be a little bit foolhardy to begin a conversation with a complete stranger on this note? You never know which two Medieval European languages (three if you count Latin) they might have wasted their college years studying.

Secondly, DnD settings are nigh universally polytheistic--and it's not actually a polytheistic religion, it's polytheistic fact and I'm having Athena over for tea on Tuesday.
Also, it has elves and goblins and wizards.

As do the myths and legends of the period.

If my vaguely-at-best Medieval-themed world can handle that, it can handle "The guards approach, one of them holding a sword menacingly. The captain puts his hand on her shoulder and says to knock it off."

Cool! Run the world you want to run. There's no "correct" place to be on the medievalometer. All I'm really saying is that DMs should think through what effects the gender norms they select will have on their culture (or conversely, what the culture they're building implies about the underlying gender norms). A culture where women guards are commonplace is going to lend itself to different stories than one where the guard is a boys' club.

 

[Celtavian]

This is the oddest thread I've seen in a while. I don't see why this was ever an issue. Sexuality of any kind was mostly avoided in RPGs save by DMs and players comfortable with that type of role-play. No one should be forced into that type of role-playing, DM or otherwise.

As a DM I would not be comfortable role-playing gay male romance or sex. I'm not going to be forced to role-play that with anyone. I'm heterosexual. I feel comfortable role-playing attraction to females, that's why I can role-play female homosexuality. I no more expect someone to force me to role-play male homosexual sex than I expect a male homosexual to role-play female-male or female-female sex. The same goes for transgender sexual material. Just not going to be forced into something I'm not comfortable with. No one should be forced into an uncomfortable role-play situation in a game.

As far as the game being more inclusive, I'm all for it. People should be able to play what they want. I didn't see any problem with Pathfinder including homosexual NPCs. Given I don't focus on sexuality in my games, I role-played them like a regular heterosexual couple without going into the deep details. It is the deep details I'm not comfortable with and in general I don't pursue sexuality and romance in my games on more than a surface level. I guess you could say a PG-13 TV level. That's about as far as I'm going to take it.

Why would someone try to force overt sexuality on a DM or player group? That would be insulting whether it was homosexual or heterosexual. Or is this just a matter of a player being able to write up a background where they have a homosexual partner and not experiencing discrimination? I don't have a problem with that myself. I'd just shrug and say ok. I might even have some fun with it using a few gay stereotypes I've seen on TV like a gay man with a flamboyant nagging husband or boyfriend because it would be funny to have some guy giving him a hard time for things like his clothes and hygiene. "Oh Herbert, you're all covered in blood. I'm so tired of you adventuring all the time. Always out traipsing about in some cave and you come home stinking like orc dung. I'm not going to have anything to do with you until you clean up. So foul." If there is some particularly attractive male in the group, having the husband be jealous would be hilarious. "Are you sleeping with that barbarian? Are you cheating on me, Herbert?" Have the boyfriend go off in a huff. That would be funny role-playing.

 

[Mirtek]

Anyone seen "Stunning and Brave" recently?

Forgetting to include women in fiction is a problem, and it tends to be quite an obvious one. Not having this problem in the first place is quite simple. If you do have this problem, you really should work to remedy it.

So "Stand by me" has a problem and should be remedied? Or "Das Boot"?

Homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia, nor is it a "fringe" thing.

With a size somewhere between 1.2-6.8% of population it's a fringe thing (just as being a D&D player is a fringe thing). That's not slagging it, just stating it's relative commonness. Even in the most open and diverse metropolitan areas it's below 15%.

Heteronormativity is not a slure to discriminate the LGBTdemographic, it's simply reflecting the distribution of sexual preferences among the population.

Way upthread there's passing mention of disabled PC or NPC adventurers; it occurs to me the existence of the "Heal" and-or "Regeneration" spells would in many cases make this a rather moot point.

Well, these spells are very expensive, especially in a world where a peasant may never see a gold piece

 

[Celtavian]

I just wanted to mention, as a straight guy, that my current Mage character ("Big Alex") is a transvestite. Biologically female, but presents and identifies as a male. I'm pretty sure most of the players have forgotten that he's actually biologically female.

Not exactly stepping out on a ledge there are you? This is not in anyway controversial or interesting. I have had plenty of players play female characters that identify as male. They have little trouble imagining a female going after another female romantically.

You want to do something interesting, play a male homosexual.

 

[Celtavian]

Homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia, nor is it a "fringe" thing. Neither is it ok to call anyone a loser who does not agree to your view of how the game is supposed to be.

Just don't go there.

I get where you're coming from in the modern day.

I would like point out that Greek homosexuality definitely had a pedophile element to it. Or I would say hebephile element. Greek historical documents clearly show that Greek armies often took women and boys. Not men, but boys. It is very clear on this subject. It is also documented that Afghanistan homosexual behaviors tend to target boys as well. I would assume this has to do with male tendencies to pursue sexual partners that are weaker and more likely to be dominated. That is why smaller, less masculine women are the dominant type of female because men naturally selected females that were easier to physically dominate making relations easier. I think any society with open and accepted homosexuality would have a dominant male and a submissive male. Usually boys are at a state of physical and mental development where it would be easier to turn them into a submissive partner for a dominant male homosexual.

This is no way disparaging. It is merely an observation supported by the little data we have on homosexual behaviors in societies where homosexuality has been openly accepted in at least part of the nation's culture. I think it is a biologically supportable component as to why this behavior would occur in this fashion. It occurs in all types of animals. Usually heterosexual relationships have a dominant male with the female submissive amongst humans with occasional variations in this common theme with some dominant females. There is a similar variation in homosexual relationships I assume. I have seen quite a few relationships between females that have a relatively equal partner relationship as well as those relationships with a dominant female and submissive female similar to heterosexual relationships. I think this variation would be greater with females because they are under no pressure to be in a dominant position.

That would be more difficult between males given the genetic makeup of males. The male's hormones generally push him to engage in behaviors that encourage activities that allow him to assert dominance. Thus a homosexual relationship between equals would be difficult in a culture where male dominance was an important factor in the power hierarchy. This would lead to younger, boyish males being more attractive to a dominant homosexual because they are easier to control.

I don't think these same pressures exist in modern day America. So you probably see a wider variation in the dominant-submissive nature of homosexual relationships. Then again I don't think there has been extensive study as of yet on American male homosexual culture to see it if compares with the Greeks and Afghani homosexual culture. That would definitely make for an interesting study to see what American homosexual culture is like or European.

 

[Umbran]

Folks,

Apparently, I have to make something clear - don't argue with moderator action. You'd do well to not reply to posts in Mod Voice color - such posts are not generally up for discussion. Some of you may have responded with factually correct points, but technically you are in violation of the site Rules.

Understand this is a touchy subject, and that makes it the *worst* place to publicly nitpick at a moderator. If you have a point you'd like to make about such a point, ask the mod in e-mail or PM if it is okay first, lest the response be less pleasant than you'd like.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I can't believe how this has taken such an ugly turn. No, that's a lie, I guess I knew it would.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Holy thread explosion, Batman!

I still maintain those who downplay (or don't want, or don't allow) romance and-or sex* and all that goes with it in their games are really missing out, and their campaigns are shallower for it.

* - best case being between any combination and-or number of consenting individuals

Way upthread there's passing mention of disabled PC or NPC adventurers; it occurs to me the existence of the "Heal" and-or "Regeneration" spells would in many cases make this a rather moot point.

Lan-"thought I had more to say but I guess not this time"-efan

I don't push romance, but when it comes up it is VERY hit or miss...when it works though it's cool