D&D 5E How much healing, how much mitigation for a warlord?

[ChrisCarlson]

No. I simply think that your question is a silly one.

The 4e warlord has more toys than the 5e wizard - there are more 4e warlord powers than 5e spells period. It doesn't need most of them. It does however need certain abilities.

It does however need a range of broad capabilities. And until that range of broad capabilities challenges any of the primary spellcasters at all the things they can do (which the Warlord doesn't even come close to doing) it is severe double standards to claim that the request is for too many toys.

And I think your answer is silly. You are absolutely asking for too many toys. Because you are missing the fact of what "you" means. Not the personal "you", the general "you". The various hardline warlord advocates here all asking for certain things. To each of (the general) you these things are "essential toys". Unless it's all included, there will be rioting in the streets by some of (the general) you. So the class will have it all. It's the only way to please (the general) you. And in doing so, the Kitchen Sinker will be a disaster.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Why? I'm not trying to be a smart-alec, but why is reducing damage taken not a valid replacement for healing?

You aren't trying to be a smart-alec but this has been asked and answered. You can replace restoring hit points with reducing damage if the reducing damage version is overwhelmingly more powerful than restoring hit points.

But every single damage mitigation model that anyone has suggested requires the player to have precognition. If the attacker doesn't hit the damage prevention is wasted. If the attacker hits the wrong person proactive damage prevention doesn't work.

The most HP of healing over the course of an adventuring day come from spending HD. Why can't the warlord be better at reducing/removing that damage but worse at standing up people who have already fallen?

And this is a flat misrepresentation.

No one I've seen is saying the warlord has to be as good at standing people up who have already fallen as the cleric. What is being said is that the warlord must be able to stand up people who have fallen. The Paladin can also stand up people who have fallen - but no one would say that they can stand them up as well as the Cleric. Just that they can do it.

I'm not saying not to give them something like song of rest or the Inspiring Leader feat to also help during rests. But why must they heal wounds?

Now we're going to get into a hit point argument.

But why MUST the warlord have to have a healing component vs. a damage reduction component? The poll has no healing at all as the most answered response, double the next highest which is still 80% mitigation. This seems to be a viable option for other players, what makes it wrong?

The poll has people who hate the very idea of the warlord answering it. It also has the majority of people not saying none.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

And this is a flat misrepresentation.

No one I've seen is saying the warlord has to be as good at standing people up who have already fallen as the cleric. What is being said is that the warlord must be able to stand up people who have fallen. The Paladin can also stand up people who have fallen - but no one would say that they can stand them up as well as the Cleric. Just that they can do it.

So you'd be fine with a once per long rest ability to stand someone up from 0 HPs? And the rest of its toolbox being useful on conscious allies?

 

[Neonchameleon]

And I think your answer is silly. You are absolutely asking for too many toys. Because you are missing the fact of what "you" means. Not the personal "you", the general "you". The various hardline warlord advocates here all asking for certain things. To each of (the general) you these things are "essential toys". Unless it's all included, there will be rioting in the streets by some of (the general) you. So the class will have it all. It's the only way to please (the general) you. And in doing so, the Kitchen Sinker will be a disaster.

Perhaps you would care to say what exactly you think is being asked for. Complete with citations to people actually asking for it rather than people opposing it.

Because your Kitchen Sinker is a complete myth so far as I can tell. It's the latest way someone has found to try and derail the discussion.

 

[Orlax]

You aren't trying to be a smart-alec but this has been asked and answered. You can replace restoring hit points with reducing damage if the reducing damage version is overwhelmingly more powerful than restoring hit points.

But every single damage mitigation model that anyone has suggested requires the player to have precognition. If the attacker doesn't hit the damage prevention is wasted. If the attacker hits the wrong person proactive damage prevention doesn't work.

I thought tactical play, such as making field decisions about who is in a high risk position, or is going to be placing themselves in harm's way, and could use a buffer and who isn't was a feature of playing a warlord.

I mean I won't disagree that it would need to be far more frequent than healing would be, but I'd also say it can be a tad weaker as to how much it gives at a time. If I'm handing out temp on the regular I want it to be low values (so if I'm hitting multiple targets it won't override armor of agyths or the abjuration class feature) but I want to do it frequently and possibly to multiple targets.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So you'd be fine with a once per long rest ability to stand someone up from 0 HPs? And the rest of its toolbox being useful on conscious allies?

Probably - depending on everything else in the package, and how often people dropped in play with the rest of the package. But no objection in principle assuming the class pulled its weight properly.

 

[Bawylie]

And I think your answer is silly. You are absolutely asking for too many toys. Because you are missing the fact of what "you" means. Not the personal "you", the general "you". The various hardline warlord advocates here all asking for certain things. To each of (the general) you these things are "essential toys". Unless it's all included, there will be rioting in the streets by some of (the general) you. So the class will have it all. It's the only way to please (the general) you. And in doing so, the Kitchen Sinker will be a disaster.

The "essentials" (this is all IMO) are broad category stuff. The discard-able stuff is discrete implementations.

For me, W must have as essentials:
A) Some way to handle incoming damage.
B) Some way to improve teammates' performance.
C) Some way to grant/gift/transfer actions.

This is why Mearls et al have responded (when asked where's the warlord) "Have you tried BM Fighter or Valor Bard?"

I have tried both. But they both have A B & C as add-ons to being a fighter or bard. A proper W has A B & C as its core function. They belong in a prominent spot like multi-attacks for fighter and songs/spells for bard - not as tacked-on things.

Now what can I live without? Lots of stuff. In fact, I'm not super-picky about how we do A B & C. If non-magical Inspiring HP recovery is a problem, I'm happy to jettison it for something else. Like field-medic care using healing kit. (Maybe a fast-hands type of deal when doing the healing kit action that restores HP).

If there's a problem RP-wise with some kind of perceived team hierarchy, I'm down with changing the flavor text so we don't have that issue. I don't want to impose a team heirarchy or play W bc I want to be in charge. I want to do B & C. It doesn't have to be "commands and orders" though.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I thought tactical play, such as making field decisions about who is in a high risk position, or is going to be placing themselves in harm's way, and could use a buffer and who isn't was a feature of playing a warlord.

That doesn't mean that you don't need significantly more damage mitigation than you do healing to do the same job. Dice spikes are a thing. So is the 0hp threshold. Which is why some healing is needed.

 

[Orlax]

That doesn't mean that you don't need significantly more damage mitigation than you do healing to do the same job. Dice spikes are a thing. So is the 0hp threshold. Which is why some healing is needed.

Sorry I threw an edit in so I'll repost the edit here:

I mean I won't disagree that it would need to be far more frequent than healing would be, but I'd also say it can be a tad weaker as to how much it gives at a time. If I'm handing out temp on the regular I want it to be low values (so if I'm hitting multiple targets it won't override armor of agyths or the abjuration class feature) but I want to do it frequently and possibly to multiple targets

 

[mellored]

The 4e warlord has more toys than the 5e wizard - there are more 4e warlord powers than 5e spells period. It doesn't need most of them. It does however need certain abilities.

I disagree. There where more total powers, but many of those are just "at higher level" abilities.


4e warlords have 334 powers.

97 have "basic attack".
63 have "bonus" (without basic attack)
51 have "hit points"
43 have "shift" (grant movement)
19 have "slide" (forced movement)
11 have "penalty"

= 272

That covers 82% of the 4e warlords powers. And i'm hard pressed to remember what other ability they would have. Besides a few regain/don't lose powers and initiative manipulation. (any others?)

5e warlords don't need 90 different ways to grant an attack. So it can (IMO) be easily boiled down to...



Action to attack / grant an attack.
Bonus action to grant a bonus / healing (or mitigation) / movement.
Reaction can grant bonus / mitigation / movement.
Exhaust allies to let them recharge spells. (tony's idea that i quite like).
Give bonuses / penalties when you roll initiative.