D&D 5E I just don't see why they even bothered with the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

[Dire Bare]

Retailers aren't interested in selling a product once. They want to sell that same product down the road as well. As such they're not designed for buy in bulk because then they have warehouse costs which is not something they have to worry about with traditional methods of obtaining stock. So no, kickstarter is not retail friendly in this regard (not stepping into the discussion between Jester and CMG).

I'll argue your point, although I don't think there are many retailers out there funding Kickstarters for their store's inventory.

A typical FLGS will purchase however many copies of a game product they think will sell quickly, which could be anywhere between one and dozens or more depending on the product and the store's clientele. And Kickstarter retailer tiers that I have seen cater to that perfectly (well, by units available). They aren't trying to get retailers to fund and receive hundreds of units, but more like the two or three they might have ordered through their distributors anyway.

But, even for just two or three units, that's capital that gets potentially tied up for a long time which probably doesn't make most FLGS retailers happy, so they rarely use these options on Kickstarter (from what I have heard, no insider info here).

 

[Hussar]

Realistically though, the profit on two or three books just isn't enough to justify the hassle. It takes time to find kickstarters that you'd want to back, and actually do that backing. Then you have to wait X number of months to actually get the product and then try to sell it. And, taking 100% of the risk that your inventory won't sell, plus, actually having to hold that inventory for however long.

That's just very bad business. Especially considering you're only selling half a dozen books at best. To have to go through that for multiple titles would be enough to make me want to paint my brains over the ceiling. You'd be far better off just putting that money in the bank. The return would likely be better and the stress level far less. I wouldn't blame any retailer for not jumping on kickstarters.

 

[Dire Bare]

I think you're being a bit disingenuous here. For example, I backed the Primeval Thule Kickstarter. Cool, now I've got a nifty new setting and about five modules and other goodies. Why would I go out and buy the, for example, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide? It's not going to help my PT campaign. So, I would argue that it does create fairly direct competition. McDonald's doesn't create and sell anything that would possibly be found at an FLGS. Kickstarter most certainly does.

I own the Primeval Thule book (both the original and the 5E version) AND I have the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide on it's way to me right now from Amazon.

My purchase of Primeval Thule (twice!) wasn't really competing with a retail store, although you can probably find Primeval Thule on some retail shelves now. If I hadn't been one of the backers, it's possible the book would not exist for anyone to sell! What IS competing with my purchase of products at the local FLGS is when I ask for something like Primeval Thule because I don't see it on the shelf, I get a blank stare from the FLGS employee who then tries to sell me a Pathfinder product I didn't ask about.

Amazon competed directly with my FLGS on the SCAG, and won my business because Amazon is cheaper, faster, more convenient, and I don't have to put up with the crappy customer service at my local FLGS.

 

[Alzrius]

The Economist disagrees with you:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2014/06/crowdfunding

Kickstarter itself disagrees with the Economist: https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store. Given that it's their own platform, I'd say they know better.

 

[Alzrius]

Could you please provide citations to your sources that Kickstarter has not hurt retail stores in any way? That Kickstarter has not negatively impacted games stores at all? That Kickstarter has never cost a game store a single sale?

Mark CMG is right to point out that you can't prove a negative. The idea that Kickstarter has harmed retail sales is an affirmative premise, so it's the one that must be proven.

 

[Dire Bare]

The original comment was that WotC using kickstarter would hurt retail outlets. Whether kickstarter is a retail outlet itself is irrelevant. I asked earlier what would happen to retail outlets if all new products were sold via kickstarter, and the question was ignored.

If that was your question, it should have been ignored (sorry). There are some small companies that have only made products available through Kickstarter, but large companies use a variety of ways to get products to market, and WotC is the biggest (in our industry). And even those small companies who have not reached beyond Kickstarter yet hope to become successful enough so that they CAN sell through a variety of retail channels and not be "Kickstarter-exclusive".

As a previous poster noted, WotC's business structure probably makes it unlikely they will ever use Kickstarter. There's nothing really stopping them if they wanted to, but they are too large, too corporate, and too bureaucratic to make Kickstarter an easy choice. And if they did decide to use the platform, they would be fools to only make products available through the site, and no one (in this thread or otherwise) has advocated that they do that. It'd be pretty stupid.

IMO, under the current situation, WotC WILL NOT produce a big, beautiful, 400 page behemoth of a campaign setting book for the Forgotten Realms (or for any of their settings). It doesn't fit their current business model and resources, and not enough gamers out there would buy it to make it worthwhile . . . THROUGH NORMAL RETAIL CHANNELS. However, WotC could use Kickstarter to fund such a beast, and it only gets made if enough gamers pony up the dough FIRST, proving that there is a market. Once the Kickstarter closed, WotC could make retail copies available, or simply keep it Kickstarter exclusive for the small population who would actually want and be willing to purchase such a book.

I think it's a great idea! Probably a good thing I'm not one of the decision-makers at WotC!

 

[JohnLynch]

Mark CMG is right to point out that you can't prove a negative. The idea that Kickstarter has harmed retail sales is an affirmative premise, so it's the one that must be proven.

Actually while generally it can be said you can't prove a negative, the study results you've asked for, if conducted properly, would be able to determine whether or not kickstarter has harmed retail stores. So when asking for an analysis of kickstarter's effects on retailers it is equally valid to ask for the results regardless of whether you're hoping for them to prove that kickstarter has had no effect on retailers or you are hoping they will prove kickstarter has had an impact on retailers.

 

[gyor]

Its very simple if hypothetical book A wouldn't happen without a kickstarter and that book would sell copies in a physical store generating profit for that store, then jts clear that kickstarter benifited the physical stores.

Of course that depends on it needing a kickstarter to happen, so ideally you don't use kickstarters for products you know will sell well if you have the capital to do so.

 

[Alzrius]

No, it's legally absolutely the same.

No, it is not. How company X pays taxes on the money they earn from a Kickstarter does not classify the type of service that Kickstarter itself offers.

If WotC would start a kickstarter drive for a full FRCS and I were to pledge 50€ to receive a copy of the FRCS once it's finished, that's legally actually me pre-ordering the FRCS from WotC.

Putting money down as part of an agreement that you'll receive something in exchange for it is a matter of contract law, and that goes with regard to anything where there's an exchange of something of value. In other words, that type of deal has a scope that covers more than just retail transactions. Trying to say that anything that involves the exchange of money where something is expected is necessarily a matter of retail sales is disingenuous.

There's no other legal transaction that is applicable to what transpired.

Absolutely wrong. There are many other types of transactions where money changes hands with the expectation that you'll receive something for it. You can donate to a charity and get a book of stamps from them for having done so, but it's still tax-deductible.

Yes, I carry the risk that the FRCS I just pre-ordered might never be completed and my money will be lost, but that is fully possible with certain kinds of pre-orders.

You keep operating under the principle that things that are similar are therefore identical. That's not the case.

I don't give WotC a loan, I don't gain buy share in WotC, I don't make a donation, I don't give them a gift - these are all legally defined types of transaction.

You also don't buy a product from them, which is also a legally-defined type of transaction. You're not helping your case by stating what it's not; you need to actually support what it is, and you haven't done that yet.

Technically it's a special sort of employment contract in which Wotc is paid to perform a work for me to the best of their ability without being accountable for success (a type of contract often done with software companies actually) and me carrying the risk of failure (unless I can blame WotC with severe neglect of their duties)

You do realize that this completely flies in the face of them being a retailer, right? Unless you think that retail stores also are a "special sort of employment contract."

No crowfunding is what the crowd does, KS only offers a platform on which the the would-be entrepreneur can present himself to the crowd.

Which means that they're not a retailer.

That's different from mediator who truly go and present promising entrepreneur to would-be backers (e.g. actively seek them out with a collection of projects and convice them to buy in, while kickstarter provides a mostly passive servie).

Neither of which are a retail outlet.

No, it's designed to give it's user the opportunity to do so with each other.

No, it's designed to give its users the opportunity to seek funds to create something, or pledge funds to help it be created.

Which is legally you pre-ordering them. There is no other applicable legal transaction.

See above; this is flat-out wrong.

That's how it's taxed, that are the legal rights and obligations attained by both parties.

Again, this has already been demonstrated to be untrue; just having "legal rights and obligations" does not meet the (so far not cited by you) "legal definition" of what constitutes a "pre-order."

By the by, there's no listing for "pre-order" (or "preorder") at Black's Law Dictionary. So when you keep leaning on the "legal definition" of the term, you're not at all on solid ground.

If WotC were to use KS to crowdfund a full FRCS it would directly be selling said FRCS to me instead of using it's own fund or loans to produce it and then sell it through B&N; Amazon, FLGS, etc. thus directly depriving them of this business, putting a serious wedge in their partnership.

Flat-out incorrect. It's not depriving those other outlets of the opportunity to compete with them for that product because that product does not yet exist. Likewise, when the Kickstarter closes and that book is in a store, then Kickstarter cannot compete with that store because it does not make the product available. There's no competition going on.

 

[Alzrius]

Actually while generally it can be said you can't prove a negative, the study results you've asked for, if conducted properly, would be able to determine whether or not kickstarter has harmed retail stores. So when asking for an analysis of kickstarter's effects on retailers it is equally valid to ask for the results regardless of whether you're hoping for them to prove that kickstarter has had no effect on retailers or you are hoping they will prove kickstarter has had an impact on retailers.

In this case, "proving a negative" means conclusively demonstrating that Kickstarter specifically has not had any harmful impact on retail sales outlets. Given that this would include conclusively demonstrating that none of the money used for any Kickstarter pledges - regardless of what project is being funded, RPG-related or not (e.g. indirect competition) - would have gone to any purchases in a FLGS, that's pretty well impossible to prove.