D&D 5E I just don't see why they even bothered with the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

Corpsetaker

First Post
Gamestore owners decide what they want to carry in their store.

You can't assume everything that goes through kickstarter would have ended up on a shelf anyway. You CANNOT assume that just because a product COULD end up on a shelf that it will. Kickstarter can't take away something that was never there in the first place.
 

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Corpsetaker

First Post
Also let me say that for example. Wizards of the Coast are actually taking sales away from stores in my case more than Kickstarter because they aren't putting out any product I want. Primeval Thule is a product I wanted so I went to Kickstarter and pledged. Now if WoTc would put out some half decent product then I would have bought both, but that's not the case.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
No the implication is that it dies not matter what people/Institution say that they are or want to be but what they actually do. And in the end they're classified by finance and trade law and not by mission&vision statements on a nice website

You're wrong on this. Even if the taxation method of how money earned was a form of business classification unto itself (it isn't), that wouldn't mean that an entity's validity in describing itself is null and void.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
no, the patron bought the goods offered at the relevant pledged level.

No, the patron is giving funding at a particular level wherein they'll receive a particular reward for doing so. Saying that they "bought" those rewards is a semantic sleight-of-hand.

no it validates my Argument. If your transaction of money for good is mit taxed as a sale it's not a sale. If your transaction if money for good is taxed as a sale it's a sale. KS pledged are taxed as sale.

It does not validate your argument. Whether or not something is a "sale" is a separate issue from whether or not a particular entity is a "retailer."

no that is how it works as a prove since it differentiates the sales from the other kind of transactions.

Except that we've already established that it doesn't. If it did, that would mean that you couldn't ever have any platforms or entities that could engage in more than one kind of transaction.

.
No, you don't. You're not "buying" anything. You're receiving a reward in exchange for having funded something else.
from contract law point of view he does. You seem to be confusing different levels of employment.

You're the one confusing different levels of employment. Making a pledge for something, even if you expect something in return for it, does not make the person or entity that you've pledged it to your employee. Contract law does not hold that point of view.

As a contractor you do work for me for the contracted project despite out relationship being different from a full time employee whith whom i have a different set if rights and obligations

Even if this were the case (it's not; fulfilling a contractual obligation does not mean that the other party is your employer), it wouldn't apply to Kickstarter anyway.

they are required to use the money to provide the people with the agreed upon goods

Which is a matter of contractual agreements, not employment and certainly not retail activity.

try typing on a 4" screen against an autocorrect set to non-english and see what comes out for you

I'd like to think that what's obviously autocorrect-borne errors are still good, clean fun that can be enjoyed by all. Fund Raider! :D

at this point it is.

It's really not. A contract for something, even if in exchange for money, is not, unto itself, a retail transaction.

a pre order is a purchase order placed for an item not yet created.

You're asserting that, but there's no "legal definition" that corroborates that assertion.

now we're getting somewhere. A purchase order means you made a sale, mit a donation, mit a funding but a sale. Whether you're a retailer vor a wholeseller depends if you primarily send to endcustomer or other businesses

See above; a contract wherein money changes hands does not necessarily a (retail) sale make.

they are and it is. If i buy a pledge level from WotC that gives me an FRCS i have bought a FRCS directly from then and not from a store. And stores won't be happy about this change in WotCs distribution model.

They're not, and it isn't. You haven't "bought" anything, you've pledged money and they've rewarded you for it, but the stores won't care either way, because at that point they can't sell the FRCS and there's no way for them to get that money from you anyway.
 

Mirtek

Hero
No, the patron is giving funding at a particular level wherein they'll receive a particular reward for doing so. Saying that they "bought" those rewards is a semantic sleight-of-hand.
No, it's a semantic sleight-of-hand to classify this specific transaction as anything but a sale. A semantic sleight-of-hand that doesn't fly in front of the state, otherwise it would not be subject to sales tax.
If it did, that would mean that you couldn't ever have any platforms or entities that could engage in more than one kind of transaction.
Of course they can. There are different kinds of transactions, some are sales, some are not. The state checked the transactions happening at kickstarter and came to the conclusion that those are sales at the end of the day and is taxing them accordingly. You'll note that no one even tried to contest this, despite there being a lot of money involved if you win a case saying that it's not sales you did on kickstarter.
Which is a matter of contractual agreements, not employment and certainly not retail activity.
It's one of the key parts of a retail activity. There are other legal constructs containing this arrangement that are not sales. So we have to check which category kickstarter pledges belong to.

But as far as the specific case of kickstarter is concerned the responsible state departments already did the check for us and concluded that those are sales. Like said above there are millions involved and yet no one even tried to dispute that. They all paid, makes you wonder, doesn't it?
because at that point they can't sell the FRCS and there's no way for them to get that money from you anyway.
They can't sell it to me because at this moment WotC is using a different distribution channel that cuts out the man in the middle. It's no different than WotC deciding that henceforth no new books will be delivered to retailers and all sales are done exclusively through the newly opened WotC webshop. No FLGS would be able to sell them to me as they would no longer receive them in the first place, they're now cut from the value chain they were previously part of. That's the point why it's hurting them.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
No, it's a semantic sleight-of-hand to classify this specific transaction as anything but a sale. A semantic sleight-of-hand that doesn't fly in front of the state, otherwise it would not be subject to sales tax.

You've just moved the goalposts again, by switching from "taxed as income" to "subject to state sales tax." As it is, that's a largely moot point, since most online transactions aren't subject to state sales tax to begin with; doubly moot since tax transactions do not denote what type of platform something is. That's the sleight-of-hand; pointing it out is showing how your trick is performed.

Of course they can. There are different kinds of transactions, some are sales, some are not. The state checked the transactions happening at kickstarter and came to the conclusion that those are sales at the end of the day and is taxing them accordingly. You'll note that no one even tried to contest this, despite there being a lot of money involved if you win a case saying that it's not sales you did on kickstarter.

You seem to be referencing some specific activity happening here (e.g. the state checked), but you don't reference what it is. As noted above, the "sales taxes are charged" issue is a thin one at best, and largely based around the relative locations of the patron and the company. Even considering that, having such a tax charged does not mean that this is a retail transaction, since tax structures do not denote what sort of platform a particular venue is.

It's one of the key parts of a retail activity. There are other legal constructs containing this arrangement that are not sales. So we have to check which category kickstarter pledges belong to.

The salient point here is that contract law, while it may be one of the key points of retail activity, is not limited purely to retail activity. It covers a lot of other areas where something is X-for-Y.

But as far as the specific case of kickstarter is concerned the responsible state departments already did the check for us and concluded that those are sales. Like said above there are millions involved and yet no one even tried to dispute that. They all paid, makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Not particularly, no. The fact that something was categorized as being subject to a particular type of taxation is not indicative of the nature of the platform, as I've told you many times now. Even if you try to change venues from "taxable income" to "state sales taxes," that doesn't undermine that point. Non-retail outlets can still be charged with sales taxes on materials when there's a monetary transaction involved, even if that's a transaction that doesn't involve a "purchase" per se. Likewise, there are retail transactions that aren't subject to state sales taxes (e.g. most online sales), so the entire "it's taxed this way, so it's retail" argument is far less ironclad than you'd like to believe.

They can't sell it to me because at this moment WotC is using a different distribution channel that cuts out the man in the middle. It's no different than WotC deciding that henceforth no new books will be delivered to retailers and all sales are done exclusively through the newly opened WotC webshop. No FLGS would be able to sell them to me as they would no longer receive them in the first place, they're now cut from the value chain they were previously part of. That's the point why it's hurting them.

Except that it's not hurting them, because WotC isn't using a distribution channel at all; they're funding it and promising a few copies as rewards ahead of time to help incentivize the funding. That's extremely different from WotC opening a webshop, which funds nothing and instead makes direct sales. Moreover, said webshop would be available in perpetuity, and would still need to compete with retailers (e.g. secondhand products) in a way that Kickstarter is not subject to. Stores cannot be "cut out" of distributing an item when said item hasn't had the funding necessary to create it procured yet.
 

That one is an opinion piece of a single person, whereas the other can represent the findings of the institution.
If it were a personal blog, then it would be more dubious (but still not automatically ignorable). But since it is a blog on a newspaper site, then it has at least as much weight as a published editorial. It carries the Economist name and has all the weight of any other piece commissioned for the Economist paper.

Incorrect. Noting that some guy is some guy, and not representative of the entire institute, is a statement of fact. Stating that it's an ad hominem is itself a strawman fallacy.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
Specifically the part about undermining the opponent's case without actually having to engage.

The fact that it is a blog is irrelevant and reductionary. Dismissing the source outright is ridiculous, as it dismisses all qualifications of the author and all arguments they have made. This isn't 2007 anymore. Blogs can be a professional form of journalism. Numerous lettered individuals write blogs that are just as detailed and informed as academic papers.

So you think that someone stating what sort of business they're running isn't a credible statement as to what kind of business they're running? You need to double-check on what a "fallacious argument" is, unless you're trying to demonstrate them by example.
I believe businesses can be vague on what their actual business is, often for various legal and taxation-based reasons. British guy giving an example

It certainly makes sense that Kickstarter would say they're not a store. That's a super important disclaimer for people who don't know how Kickstarter works and that projects are not guaranteed. That there is a risk of products failing. And certainly not every use of the Kickstarter service qualifies remotely as a "store".
But saying Kickstarter is never a store is a semantic argument. It's like saying Costco isn't a store because it's a "membership-only warehouse club".

And yet they say otherwise, but please, tell us how you know what Kickstarter is better than Kickstarter itself.
Okay. Let's really peel back the layers on this Kickstarter debate. Let's get serious, let's get... essayist! (Or at least as close as I can get in the middle of NaNoWriMo.)

The real question is: does Kickstarter have a negative impact on retail game stores?

The primary counterpoint to this is that Kickstarter is NOT a store. They say so themselves. There have been a number of opinion pieces and articles countering this one, two, three, four.

But let's get deeper and look at what Kickstarter is. It allows the exchange of money to a creator or project. It's a service. It can be a low-return investment. A form of charitable donation. Patronage to creative individuals. And a method of exchanging money for forthcoming products.
So it's cleaner to say that Kickstarter is not always a store. Or that Kickstarter can be a store. It's not a store and it's certainly not always a store, but it can function as a store.Given we're discussing gaming products as a particular subset of the broader use of Kickstarter, we can effectively ignore the broader uses of Kickstarter.

As examples of the gaming uses of Kickstarter, most RPG publishers no longer do pre-orders for books from their store. They simply run Kickstarters. Frog God Games was doing pre-orders to subsidize unpublished books as recently as 2011. It's easier as people already have Kickstarter or Facebook accounts and the financial security of Amazon is good.
There is the added functionality that no one is charged if the project does not reach a pre-set goal (i.e. does not sell a set number of copies), but it is not unheard of for publishers to cancel books and refund preorders due to a lack of interest. So, in this instance, Kickstarter functions identically to a publisher's web-store.
While not every Kickstarter offers "the product" as a backer reward, it is generally unheard of for gaming Kickstarters to not offer the game product. While you are actually backing the project, you are in effect purchasing the product. The result is the same. Many Kickstarters have even dropped the token unrelated backer rewards that amount to donations. The Necromancer games 5e Kickstarter, Shadow of the Demon Lord, and Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts all have no generic reward, and all backers receive *some* product.

As an example of the token reward, the two Primeval Thrule Kickstarters were backed by 822 and 870 for a total of 1692 backers. Only 38 opted to get the $1 token reward, representing 2.24% of backers. The vast, vast majority of backers were not interested in anything but the product.

Some publishers do not even operate a regular webstore, and rely on Kickstarters to sell directly with customers. Alderac Entertainment (partnered with Studio 2 Publishing for sales and publishing) does not sell directly in North America and their books and Amazon are sold through secondary vendors. They openly say the best way to get their books is to either buy them at GenCon or back one of the Kickstarters.

For the above reasons, we can safely ignore Kickstarter's disclaimers that they are not a store.
In this instance.

Now, the follow-up topic is does Kickstarter compete with retail stores?
There are two types of competition: direct and indirect.
Do Kickstarters supply different types of product that satisfy the same need and/or offer essentially the same good or service?
In this instance, the goods are undeniably the same. Whether you buy a board game, game book, or miniature product on Kickstarter or at a game store you end up with the product. However, there is a delay with Kickstarter. The time between backing and receiving the goods is lengthy, often upwards of a year. So the service is different.
Therefore, Kickstarter are game stores are only in indirect competition. But competition nevertheless.

Expanding on this, does this competition favour Kickstarter or game stores?

Game stores have the advantage of immediate gratification: you go to the store and buy the product. The convenience of this does depend if the product is in stock and the distance of the store.
Kickstarter has the advantage that products are shipped to your location, you can "shop" from home or your phone, and the price is generally cheaper. Plus there are often Kickstarter exclusives or small perks that increase the value, especially for collectors.
When choosing to buy the same product via a Kickstarter over a game store, the delay of Kickstarter ceases to matter. If you really want a board game seen on Kickstarter, then you wait the same time. Arguably, the Kickstarter is faster, since they tend to prioritize getting content to the backers before selling elsewhere. And the cost of the product can be spread out over a longer period rather than required all at once.
If buying a comparable but not identical product, the delay does make game stores more appealing. It is a case of immediate gratification over instant gratification.

The cheaper price of Kickstarters is worth examining. Kickstarters can be cheaper than selling in stores, since you are buying from the publisher, and are paying neither a distributor nor a store which increases the price (which normally account for 3/5ths of the price).

I'll compare Kickstarters that I've backed, because I have links handy and these are ones that MSRP can be compared.

Ultimate Psionic was available for $50 if Kickstarted or $70 after.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/197021008/ultimate-psionics-hardcover/description
http://paizo.com/products/btpy91t5?Ultimate-Psionics

Advanced Bestiary sells for $50 vs $45, but KS includes PDF which is another $20, so the Kickstarter was cheaper.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy99vj?Advanced-Bestiary
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1780208966/advanced-bestiary-for-the-pathfinder-rpg/description

While I cannot find retail prices for Reaper's Bones sets (I have seen them before and they were significantly more), individual add-ons can be prices. Khanjira the World Breaker has a MSRP of $49.99 and sells for that on the Reaper store, but during the Kickstarter it was a $25 add-on.
https://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/world breaker/sku-down/77380
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-ii-the-return-of-mr-bones

I'm still eagerly awaiting my copy of the Ghostbusters Board Game, which Kickstarted for $80 vs $85
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/ghostbusters-the-board-game/description
http://www.amazon.com/Ghostbusters-The-Board-Game/dp/B00ZF09VLY
Now, you *can* get it cheaper on Amazon, but the discussion is about how Kickstarters compete with game stores not Amazon, so I'm using the MSRP. And there are the stretch goals, which may not be included in the Base game.

The BIG variable is shipping. Some Kickstarters have free shipping, some do not. For those Kickstarters with added shipping, the value versus a store depends on where you live and the value of add-on components.

There are a few other advantageous factors for Kickstarter.

Kickstarter can be an effective advertising tool. It features photographs and videos, giving more information than just packaging. There is a greater sales pitch. And news of a Kickstarter can virally spread throughout the community, with cool projects attracting attention. This is easy as the KS link can be easily and instantly shared. When you see a cool Kickstarter you are always in a position to share it.
Game stores lack the same advertising. Store owners can perform some sales, but only for products they are familiar with, and often with less enthusiasm than the creators of the game. And if you do find a cool game, it's harder to instantly share it with the world. There's less sense of discovery.

You also less likely to go into a game store just to browse. There's typically a purpose for the visit. It's rarer to find a gem of a game because you're looking for another product. If you do find a neat game it becomes a product you think about buying later rather than now, as games are seldom cheap enough to be good impulse purchases. (And you're already likely spending money.)
Kickstarter is easier as you can change your mind quickly and there's a delay before funding (and paying off your credit card), plus the option of cancellation.So it's easier to purchase as an impulse.
Stores are easier to browse. And there's the sunk cost effect, where you've already made the trip to the store and don't want to leave empty handed if what you want is not in stock.

There's also a few psychological benefits to Kickstarter over a regular purchase.
Backing a project and watching the stretch goals add up and backer count increase is exciting. The updates and goals make you feel a part of something larger. That's fun.
There's also the anticipation. You paid and are waiting for something for weeks or months. And it's just fun getting packages in the mail. When it arrives it's like Christmas. The purchase is more satisfying. (Or, potentially, more disappointing if the project is poor.)
It's also easier to forget paying. As document on Dork Tower. You "buy" and sometime a couple weeks later you pay, but this cost is long forgotten when the package arrives, so the product feels free.

Summarizing, while Kickstarter is not a e-store, it serves as a store, allowing gaming Kickstarters to indirectly compete with gaming stores by offering comparable products at better value with greater convenience if you are willing to wait. With exclusive perks and some positive reinforcement due to offset payment and anticipation.

Some game Kickstarters even seem to be taking retailers into account. It's not uncommon to see "retailer incentive" levels with multiple rewards, designed to be purchased and resold at a profit. Kickstarter even changed its policy to allow for bulk purchasing.
This seems to acknowledge that Kickstarter competes with stores and is offering an alternative to vendors. (Interestingly, in this instance it's making Kickstarter fill the role of distributor instead of store).


Now, onto the semi-related topic of Wizards of the Coast doing a Kickstarter...
It would be a decent way to gauge potential interest, but they have enough sales data that it wouldn't likely tell them anything they don't already know. And they don't need to raise awareness like a smaller publisher. There would be a large segment of the market that is uninterested in buying from Kickstarter, so there'd still be some demand in stores.
However, WotC does not deal directly with customers. Even with DDI they didn't take money and used a 3rd Party to collect subscriptions. They would be poor at giving updates, and shipping would be awkward. While they would likely make more money per sale (not paying stores), they would likely have to contract a fulfilment company and someone to manage the money, which cuts into profits.
Also, the rate of releases from WotC is more due to staffing than money. WotC has more than enough money to invest in projects.
WotC doesn't gain anything from the Kickstarter.
They are also encouraging people to buy in stores, hence allowing WPN stores to get the books a couple weeks early. While WotC does not block online or box store sales, they really incentivize supporting game stores. And Kickstarter works against this policy. It would infuriate Kickstarter backers if stores got the books before them.
 

Hussar

Legend
Because when the topic is raised, it's assumed people are interested in whatever examples are out there. It doesn't have to be to prove someones point or disprove their point, it can just be examples to frame the context of the topic raised. Generally speaking if someone is trying to disprove a point, they say that. You jumped to a conclusion, and then double and tripled down on it even after people pointed out it was a strawman and nobody had said they were claiming their example made something common or uncommon.

It was sort of like someone saying, "I wonder if it's raining all over the city?" and three people chime in from different parts of the city saying if it is or is not raining there. They're not trying to prove or disprove anything, they're just offering information for others to use in trying to answer that question.

What's even funnier is IF someone had give some examples like that without mentioning if they were trying to prove or disprove your point, the odds were equal that they were trying to prove your point. For instance, if you think 1 out of 6 players playing multiple games supports your point - and the person saying that isn't also claiming it disproves your point, don't you think it's possible it's being said to support your point? You immediately assumed everyone was against you merely by them giving examples. You know, people can be on your side, or neutral, sometimes.

Fair enough. Mea culpa.
 

Hussar

Legend
False equivalence fallacy. Amazon does not fund the creation of items; Kickstarter does. When those items that are Kickstarted go to a store, there's no alternative venue available in Kickstarter, but there is on Amazon.

I've got a Kindle Fire that might disagree with you. :D

Note, Kickstarter in no way funds the creation of items. Not at all. Kickstarter provides a platform where two (or more) parties can come together to fund the creation of an item.

Y'know, since we're being all exact and everything.
 

pemerton

Legend
If you commission something from someone, that person does not become your employee.
from contract law point of view he does. You seem to be confusing different levels of employment.

As a contractor you do work for me for the contracted project despite out relationship being different from a full time employee whith whom i have a different set if rights and obligations
In general, a person from whom I commission some product or service does not become an employee of mine, at least not under common law contract law.

The only right I have against a person from whom I commission some product or service is the right to have the product delivered or the service provided. I don't acquire any powers to direct the person in how s/he goes about creating our sourcing the product, or supplying the service (ie the sorts of powers that I would have if the person was my employee).

On what seems to be the main debate - namely, is funding a kickstarter project a form of retail purchase - I would have thought it pretty obviously is, and I'm surprised that anyone is seriously arguing the contrary. "Patrons" pay money in order to buy stuff, but subject to an arrangement whereby the stuff won't get made and delivered unless sufficiently many others also do the same.
 

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