D&D 5E Greg Leeds talks about D&D

Hussar

Legend
That's still substantially less work than having to create and playtest one's own options from scratch. Also, having to create your own options leaves out the scenario where you look through a book and find something new that, due to different perspectives and mindsets, you wouldn't have thought of creating on your own but actually works out to be pretty darn cool.


Ultimately, I think the best answer is for WotC to get their act together and come out with a freaking license already. Then, people who hold your opinion can simply say "only use WotC books," and people who hold my opinion can buy the kinds of books we want from third party publishers.

Umm, there's over one HUNDRED published 5e adventures. There are multiple setting books and more coming out every month. En World has an entire magazine devoted to 5e material.

Why aren't you buying the books you want from third party publishers?
 

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MechaPilot

Explorer
Umm, there's over one HUNDRED published 5e adventures. There are multiple setting books and more coming out every month. En World has an entire magazine devoted to 5e material.

Why aren't you buying the books you want from third party publishers?

I am aware of EnWorld's magazine. However, I have heard precisely nothing about any other third party products. I have seen zero of them on the shelf on the days when I check out my local gaming store.

Side note regarding adventures: The published adventures don't interest me. I far prefer to make my own adventures. At the moment, I have to use the published ones because of the time demands that my schoolwork places on me, but I still have RoT and PotA to run my group through before I have to buy my next adventure.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
A more accurate statement might be that DMs have no control for Adventurers League, because as I understand it DMs have other restrictions on their preferences than simply being forced to accept what is legal, and that if they want to control everything they should DM for a non-AL game.

That's not really a fair answer though. I can like how AL is right now just fine, with the current number and type of options. I don't need to "control" it all, because the existing setup is already well within my realm of acceptability. But if you increase the number of options, you increase the risk stuff will enter that I don't like. So it's not a matter of wanting to control everything, it's just a matter of the number of options crossing that threshold from acceptable to unacceptable. The idea that material can only be objectionable if you feel the need to control everything is extremist, and not really a fair way to examine the issue.


If that's the case then the approval process should be done by the DMs as a group, and that's a kink that should be worked out as part of agreement to round-robin DM. The agreement can require a majority or unanimity, but some kind of agreement should be reached.

First, a DM who won't be DMing until well down the road might have no idea in that moment that an option will or will not fit with what they plan to do - they may not have their plan ready. Inevitably this will eventually be the case, as round-robin DMing is almost never between DMs who have planned years and years in advance.

Second, this answer fits in the "you're doing it wrong - you should adapt your methods to meet my goals" series of answers. Any time you find yourself saying "then change, so that I can have my options" you're no longer arguing that it's no skin off my back to simply say no. DMs have been doing round-robin style gaming since D&D was invented without the need to suddenly consult with each other on that level of detail about future plans, and asking those DMs to suddenly change so you can have your options seems pretty unreasonable to me.


Because the design experts are also not experts? If the experts are actual experts and if there is a proper process for review, then any problems that arise should be limited to being minor in nature. It only becomes an issue if there is no proper review, perhaps because the company is rushing the book to the shelves.

We had a LOT of PHB review, and still there are problematic things in that book. And you expect splat books - and an increased rate of splat books at that - to be more flawless than the PHB itself? It's inevitable that things will not work quite as planned, and the risk increases the faster the pace of publication and the more options provided. In addition, the emphasis was on "in their campaign". The experts have no idea what each individual campaign is like. An option might work for most campaigns but not a particular one, and as I said you may not know that right away given the nature of DMs not being game design experts and campaigns developing over time and options running into problems over time.

Bottom line, it's a legitimate issue for more options.

With regard to taking an option back, yes, it is naturally harder to do once someone has chosen it because you then rely on the maturity of that person and the persuasiveness of your reasoning for removing the option. However, the notion that something in the future that is published affects the previously-allowed option in a way detrimental to the campaign assumes that the DM doesn't also assess the future material before integrating it (or that the DM didn't do a thorough job of doing so).

This fits again into the "You're playing it wrong" category of answers. If you seriously expect all DMs to be so good at assessing future game content for how it will interact with all past and future content in a changing campaign such that they can know up front every time if something will work out well or not - then I'd say you're putting an entirely unreasonable burden on DMs.

As far as developments in a campaign causing a problem, that can happen even with the existing options and is not a reason to not have them available for those who want them.

The more options you have, the more risk of it happening. That's my point.





Sounds like an excuse for shoehorning too much new material into resources that fans of older material want to use. just because you create a duelist class or subclass doesn't mean you have to shove a duelist NPC into an adventure. You can suggest the possibility of changing that NPC into a duelist, but the NPC should work just fine and have the appropriate flavor even if you are not using the dueslist option or the book that it comes in. Paizo's failure to recognize that you don't have to shove new options down people's throats is not a valid excuse for not creating more options, it's a flaw in the execution of their products.

Or it's a highly likely reaction to fans who buy those materials who want to see it supported. You're simultaneously arguing WOTC should listen to that same sub-set of fans demanding a greater rate of publications and options, and then ignore those same fans when they demand those options be supported in the future. But really, what we have is basically one example out there (the example people constantly point to) of how these things tend to develop, and you're saying "well they are just doing it wrong". Maybe, or maybe that business plan sort of dictates doing it that way which is why Paizo went down that road and continues to double-down on it. I am betting their market research is pretty strong. It means they alienate those who don't like more and more options, but cater well to those who do and who want them supported.

WOTC is going down a different route, obviously.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Second, this answer fits in the "you're doing it wrong - you should adapt your methods to meet my goals" series of answers. Any time you find yourself saying "then change, so that I can have my options" you're no longer arguing that it's no skin off my back to simply say no. DMs have been doing round-robin style gaming since D&D was invented without the need to suddenly consult with each other on that level of detail about future plans, and asking those DMs to suddenly change so you can have your options seems pretty unreasonable to me.

Not at all. I am not arguing that the change should happen to fit my goals. The change should happen because people who are round-robin-DM'ing need to be on the same page with each other. That's true of PHB and DMG options as much as potential future options. I mean, what happens when one DM is cool with all the PHB options, a second won't allow feats and a third will allow feats but won't allow multiclassing? Does each player make and update three different versions of their characters? No, while it's possible to do that, it doesn't make as much sense as making sure the DMs are on the same page to begin with.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
That's not really a fair answer though. I can like how AL is right now just fine, with the current number and type of options. I don't need to "control" it all, because the existing setup is already well within my realm of acceptability. But if you increase the number of options, you increase the risk stuff will enter that I don't like. So it's not a matter of wanting to control everything, it's just a matter of the number of options crossing that threshold from acceptable to unacceptable. The idea that material can only be objectionable if you feel the need to control everything is extremist, and not really a fair way to examine the issue.

Yeah, more options does increase the potential risk of entry of material that you find objectionable if those options are available for the AL. However, not all new options are available for the AL; in particular, the Aara-Coca-Cola comes to mind. Also, and no offense intended, I assume that your personal preferences are not the standard of exclusion for the AL. Presumably, the standard for exclusion requires a more broad-based objection than just your personal objection. That there is an increased risk that something objectionable to any one person may end up entering the AL is not the standard that should be employed.
 


I am aware of EnWorld's magazine. However, I have heard precisely nothing about any other third party products. I have seen zero of them on the shelf on the days when I check out my local gaming store.
Well, there's Fifth Edition Foes and the related Quests of Doom books. There are the Kobold Press Midgard products. Plus others many more on the way.

You're not going to see many on store shelves because they're Kickstarted or PDF-only. But that's not going to change with a new licence. A new OGL isn't going to remove Kickstarter or make 3PP financially viable for stores.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
This fits again into the "You're playing it wrong" category of answers. If you seriously expect all DMs to be so good at assessing future game content for how it will interact with all past and future content in a changing campaign such that they can know up front every time if something will work out well or not - then I'd say you're putting an entirely unreasonable burden on DMs.

I don't expect all DMs to be good at assessing how current content will interact will future content. Since they can't know what that future content is, that would be ridiculous. However, I do expect DMs to evaluate content before just plugging it into their games. I do expect that when future content comes out, those DMs will asses the new content for interactions with the older content (which is a known element since it is already extant), and I expect them to make those future evaluations at least as thorough as their prior ones.



The more options you have, the more risk of it happening. That's my point.

The more campaigns you have, the more risk you have of it happening too, doesn't mean you should have less campaigns.
 

Hussar

Legend
I am aware of EnWorld's magazine. However, I have heard precisely nothing about any other third party products. I have seen zero of them on the shelf on the days when I check out my local gaming store.

Side note regarding adventures: The published adventures don't interest me. I far prefer to make my own adventures. At the moment, I have to use the published ones because of the time demands that my schoolwork places on me, but I still have RoT and PotA to run my group through before I have to buy my next adventure.

Google is your friend. Between Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, Sasquatch Studios and others there are about five new campaign settings that I can think of, more than a couple of monster books and I'm sure loads of player options. There's a crapton of 3rd party material out there.

And that's just in one year.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Well, there's Fifth Edition Foes and the related Quests of Doom books. There are the Kobold Press Midgard products. Plus others many more on the way.

You're not going to see many on store shelves because they're Kickstarted or PDF-only. But that's not going to change with a new licence. A new OGL isn't going to remove Kickstarter or make 3PP financially viable for stores.

Google is your friend. Between Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, Sasquatch Studios and others there are about five new campaign settings that I can think of, more than a couple of monster books and I'm sure loads of player options. There's a crapton of 3rd party material out there.

And that's just in one year.

Thanks for letting me know about them.

I suppose I'd just gotten into the habit of shopping for RPG books at local game stores. Then again, I'm not exactly a big tech adopter: I don't own a cell phone, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've used one. I've never even seen a kindle (or an ipod) in person either.
 

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