D&D 5E Warlock and Repelling Blast

[Celtavian]

Well, I was going to mention that I asked Jeremy about this on Twitter, but I see Edwin's already quoted my tweet and the answer. Thanks!

I have to admit, it's not the answer I expected. I've always been of the "choose targets when casting the spell unless the spell says otherwise" mindset. And I may house rule it that way in my own games. But it's always good to know the RAI.

Even Mearls was doing as we were doing it before Crawford changed the ruling of past editions when it came to beam/ray spells. I guess they did change the text from the previous edition using scorching ray.

Here's the 3E/Pathfinder text:

You blast your enemies with fiery rays. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.

The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all bolts must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.

It is explicit that the rays fire simultaneously. The 5E text does not use the same description, though it uses a similar mechanic. I guess it is not much of a reach to change to a mechanic that views them as a quick pulsing laser you can aim at targets and see the result of between beams during your turn.

I guess I'll go with this new ruling as it does give the player more control over their ability and isn't game-breaking...the ray ruling at least...the 10 feet knockback per ray I'll have to see. I think it's going to be a huge exploit at higher level. I'll see how much of a pain in the ass it is. I'll modify creatures to ensure they are immune to knockback from spells below a certain level as needed.

I've been running 3E/Pathfinder for so long, I'm set in my ways on a few things. I'll have look more carefully at the spell text changes like removing simultaneous firing from ray/beam spells. I imagine this isn't so bad given the lower number of spells and does allow a player more control over a very sparse resource.

 

[Celtavian]

the whole target dying before the attacks are all done is exactly why the game doesn't have you declare all the targets immediately when using multi attack actions imo. You declare a target when you make each attack in sequence per the Making an Attack rules.

I don't know what editions or D&D based games you've played. Ray and beam spells have been run as some us were doing it for over a decade at least. It's one of those little 5E changes to spell text and resolution you overlook when you've been doing things a certain way for as long as some of us have been doing it. It was both a rule and convention to have beam/ray spells that operate like eldritch blast and scorching ray operate by choosing targets before you cast the spell. The pulsing laser is a new thing.

I'll freely admit you were right on this ruling as it pertains to the rules text supported by Crawford's rule decision. At least the discussion highlighted the change from 3E/Pathfinder when it comes to ray/beam spells and the lack of explicit spell text stating the rays/beams fire simultaneously. So the whole "choose targets before you cast" is replaced by the pulsing lasers you can choose after a laser hits as long as they all occur on your turn and no moving between turns. So we can assume there is time between each pulse, just insufficient time to do anything else but pick target, see result, pick new target, rinse, repeat, until all rays or beams are used. Given how quickly a trained person can do this with a gun, I can see it being similar with a spell.

 

[Noctem]

@Celtavian

Fair enough and I see from your post above that Scorching Ray used to actually say that it was fired simultaneously and that all targets had to be picked ahead of time. I think this is because of 4e to be honest. The changes come from there and moved on into 5e once that came out. Not sure if you played 4e or not?

 

[Celtavian]

@Celtavian

Fair enough and I see from your post above that Scorching Ray used to actually say that it was fired simultaneously and that all targets had to be picked ahead of time. I think this is because of 4e to be honest. The changes come from there and moved on into 5e once that came out. Not sure if you played 4e or not?

I did not play 4E. So 4E scorching ray did not have the simultaneous firing rule and that carried over to 5E. Maybe Crawford is a 4E guy. I'm a 3E/Pathfinder guy. Though 5E has more 3E than 4E did, I still have to pay attention to some of the small changes that I'm not accustomed to.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I see that. Crawford has changed how previous editions have handled spells such as this for as long as I can remember turning this into a "fire, check target, fire again, check target" with each casting. It hasn't been that way for years. I no longer trust Crawford as a rules guy.

A new edition is going to have new rules, and new ways of doing things that are different from previous editions. That's kind of the whole point of having a new edition.

I wanted to keep house rules to a minimum, but I see that will not be possible because I have min-maxers that will exploit imbalanced rules like this cantrip that can push people up to 40 feet with no save. I won't be purchasing any more 5E books, since I don't really need them to make things in the game. This isn't the first ruling I've found to be imbalanced and changes old rulings in a bad way. I'll just go back to hoping the Pathfinder guys make a new game with simplified rules, but done with at least some semblance of verisimilitude and consistent rulings or attempts at balance which this new 5E "rules guy" seems to want to not bother with. Most rule designers understand a no save knockback over a short distance is a serious game disruption, but not Crawford. Seems to completely overlook how this ability can be exploited to trivialize the game in a bad way.

How does this break verisimilitude? Try imagining it like this: eldritch blasts are kind of like laser beams. They travel through space almost instantaneously. They fire more rapidly than bows, which is why warlocks can't move between attacks. The warlock fires a laser, it travels at the speed of pew pew pew toward its target, and then the warlock, in the next moment, fires off another beam, and so on. I don't see that as immersion-breaking at all.

On the other hand, I think it's immersion-breaking that fighters can make 4 bow attacks in the span of like 1-2 seconds, all while running around the battlefield, and their arrows travel instantaneously to their targets over hundreds of feet, defying physics. Nerf fighters! /s

Here's a last prediction: This Repelling Blast ruling will be changed after enough people have exploited it to trivialize encounters in conjunction with ranged attacking. It'll take months, possibly years, because of how slow rule designers like Crawford and Mearls appear to be at assessing tactical rule problems without receiving player feedback. They can't seem to see the problem with their own eyes and tactical capabilities and will wait until enough people say, "It's kind of stupid that a cantrip can keep knocking any creature back 30 or 40 feet while the players move back 30 feet and keep on hitting them with ranged attacks." You may even see the truly ridiculous exploitative multiple characters with repelling blast after a two or three level warlock dip knocking a creature back double the amount to show how truly problematic this ruling is.

I don't think it's going to be changed, because it's nowhere near as powerful as you make it out to be. Repelling blast could be used to kite a single monster, assuming you can hit with enough attacks and the monster's movement speed is slow enough that it can't make up the difference. However, this tactic can easily be defeated by many, many monsters. It's only possible to kite things this way if you focus all of your attacks against a single creature, manage to hit on all or most of your attacks, and then only if the target has a fairly low speed, doesn't have some kind of ranged attack to retaliate with, and doesn't have friends that can run you down while you're doing this. That's a lot of ifs. If any of those things isn't true for an encounter, this tactic won't work. At best, you can sometimes use repelling blast to push a creature into (or off of) something dangerous, or maybe keep a single monster at bay. So what? Plenty of other classes have more powerful means of disabling or removing creatures from battle than this.

I'm going to kill it as a house rule. That's one of the nice things about having a min-max group. You get to see the problems before the general population accepts that the problem is real.

You can change whatever you want in your games, but you might want to consider trying it out in actual play first. I can tell you that it hasn't broken the games I play in yet. It's one of those things that looks much more powerful on paper than it is in practice.

 

[Celtavian]

I don't think it's going to be changed, because it's nowhere near as powerful as you make it out to be. Repelling blast could be used to kite a single monster, assuming you can hit with enough attacks and the monster's movement speed is slow enough that it can't make up the difference. However, this tactic can easily be defeated by many, many monsters. It's only possible to kite things this way if you focus all of your attacks against a single creature, manage to hit on all or most of your attacks, and then only if the target has a fairly low speed, doesn't have some kind of ranged attack to retaliate with, and doesn't have friends that can run you down while you're doing this. That's a lot of ifs. If any of those things isn't true for an encounter, this tactic won't work. At best, you can sometimes use repelling blast to push a creature into (or off of) something dangerous, or maybe keep a single monster at bay. So what? Plenty of other classes have more powerful means of disabling or removing creatures from battle than this.

Explain how it is easily countered? It's not saving throw. Legendary Resistance doesn't work against it. Ability check doesn't. Nothing works against except immunity to spells, immunity to force damage, or immunity to knockback. It is not easily countered and that is the problem. A coordinated group take advantage of it to neutralize any creature that does primary melee damage, which is a lot of creatures. The only thing that will save this from becoming a real problem is the fact most people don't play to very high level. Let's just say I'm a little bit tired of companies like Paizo and WotC not balancing the game for high level play.

You can change whatever you want in your games, but you might want to consider trying it out in actual play first. I can tell you that it hasn't broken the games I play in yet. It's one of those things that looks much more powerful on paper than it is in practice.

I've already seen it it in play, which is why I changed it. It was knocking creatures of melee range allowing ranged attackers to move their 30 feet combined with the basic 10 feet of movement making the creature of combat. It was also moving creatures of our range of melee combatants making it a pain in the behind for them to attack each round or use reaction based abilities in melee.

It's one of those things that only coordinated groups will take advantage of, which I've been told is extremely rare. We shall see.

 

[Xorne]

On the other hand, I think it's immersion-breaking that fighters can make 4 bow attacks in the span of like 1-2 seconds, all while running around the battlefield, and their arrows travel instantaneously to their targets over hundreds of feet, defying physics. Nerf fighters! /s

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473235-Warlock-and-Repelling-Blast/page11#ixzz3tAgIRria

I'm at work so I can't look up the link, but there's some Lars guy that fires 3 arrows accurately in the time it takes him to jump and land. A round is 6 seconds, so... no problem, as long as they are willing to admit they are prancing around like a fairy.

 

[Noctem]

I did not play 4E. So 4E scorching ray did not have the simultaneous firing rule and that carried over to 5E. Maybe Crawford is a 4E guy. I'm a 3E/Pathfinder guy. Though 5E has more 3E than 4E did, I still have to pay attention to some of the small changes that I'm not accustomed to.

Both Mearls and Jeremy Crawford were designers for 4e, yes. And we all have to pay attention to changes, it's not just you

 

[Orlax]

I'm at work so I can't look up the link, but there's some Lars guy that fires 3 arrows accurately in the time it takes him to jump and land. A round is 6 seconds, so... no problem, as long as they are willing to admit they are prancing around like a fairy.

Lars is using an inaccurate trick sitting method that hinges on underweight bows that couldn't kill as well as hoped, he's a good trick shooter but that doesn't actually help with real combat. Though his via can help with a slight suspension of disbelief.

 

[spectacle]

Explain how it is easily countered? It's not saving throw. Legendary Resistance doesn't work against it. Ability check doesn't. Nothing works against except immunity to spells, immunity to force damage, or immunity to knockback. It is not easily countered and that is the problem.

You're forgetting AC, the warlock has to actually hit to push.

Kiting in all it's forms can be a very effective if cheesy tactic if the entire party is doing it so that enemies have nobody to attack. If your entire group has min-maxed around massive Eldritch Blast pushing or other forms of group kiting, you shouldn't feel bad about min-maxing your encounters to deal with it. Enemies with high speeds and ranged attacks can't be kited, you could even kite the players if you feel particularly evil