D&D 5E World-Building DMs

[Shasarak]

Yes, I have some basic recollection. I just came in from a long time and missed the point that you were not talking about how Athas was cut off from other worlds, but working with a hypothetical alternative version of Athas's relation to the multiverse under 2e.

Basic recollection?

Oh dear.

 

[Greg K]

Basic recollection?

Oh dear.

I am not a Spelljammer fan. It is among my least favorite D&D settings along with Planescape and Eberron. I was happy that Darksun (and Ravenloft) could not officially be reached via Spelljamming
"The Spelljammer space fantasy supplement was released in 1989.[2] Several of TSR's other campaign worlds had their own sections in the Spelljammer Boxed Set - Realmspace for the Forgotten Realms, Krynnspace for Dragonlance, and Greyspace for Greyhawk. Along with the new sphere - Clusterspace - they were known as the "Big Three and Astromundi". Dark Sun, Ravenloft and Mystara weren't included, as the first two did not fit with the setting and the Mystara only used the D&D rules, not the AD&D rules." (Note: Emphasis mine)

 

[Shasarak]

I am not a Spelljammer fan. It is among my least favorite D&D settings along with Planescape and Eberron. I was happy that Darksun (and Ravenloft) could not officially be reached via Spelljamming
"The Spelljammer space fantasy supplement was released in 1989.[2] Several of TSR's other campaign worlds had their own sections in the Spelljammer Boxed Set - Realmspace for the Forgotten Realms, Krynnspace for Dragonlance, and Greyspace for Greyhawk. Along with the new sphere - Clusterspace - they were known as the "Big Three and Astromundi". Dark Sun, Ravenloft and Mystara weren't included, as the first two did not fit with the setting and the Mystara only used the D&D rules, not the AD&D rules." (Note: Emphasis mine)

Ok, so the way that a Crystal Sphere works is that it basically encloses everything in the local Solar System. So Realmspace includes Torill as well as its Sun and all the other Planets and Moons etc and Greyspace includes Oearth as well as its Sun and all the other Planets and Moons etc. To get from Realmspace to Greyspace you need to travel out of the Realmspace Crystal sphere through the intervening space (which is filled with an explosive substance called Phlogiston) to the Greyspace Crystal sphere.

Now the Athas Crystal sphere was supposed to be closed to anyone traveling through it(from outside) but, and this is important, the Athas Crystal sphere still exists meaning that the entire Athas Solar System enclosed within the Crystal Sphere still continues exactly the same way that it did before.

Because Spelljamming was invented a very long time before the closing of the Athas Crystal sphere it is therefore logical to assume that any Spelljammer within the sphere is still within the sphere.

QED You can Spelljam in Athas space.


Edit: As for Mystara, well you dont really need Spelljammers because it already has flying ships. The Princess Arc was a very famous example.

 

[Greg K]

No, you are missing the point. Originally, Dark Sun and Ravenloft had no Crystal Sphere. They existed outside of Realmspace, etc. They were excluded from being travelled to by Spelljamming, spells, etc.. The Crystal Sphere of Athas was an addition that came about in the Revised boxed set era (and said to be impenetrable). Whether or not there was some technicality to get around the impenetrable aspect of the sphere is irrelevant to the original edition which is the only edition about which I care. According to the designers, under the original edition, one could officially Spelljam to Athas period.

Ok, so the way that a Crystal Sphere works is that it basically encloses everything in the local Solar System. So Realmspace includes Torill as well as its Sun and all the other Planets and Moons etc and Greyspace includes Oearth as well as its Sun and all the other Planets and Moons etc. To get from Realmspace to Greyspace you need to travel out of the Realmspace Crystal sphere through the intervening space (which is filled with an explosive substance called Phlogiston) to the Greyspace Crystal sphere.

Now the Athas Crystal sphere was supposed to be closed to anyone traveling through it(from outside) but, and this is important, the Athas Crystal sphere still exists meaning that the entire Athas Solar System enclosed within the Crystal Sphere still continues exactly the same way that it did before.

Because Spelljamming was invented a very long time before the closing of the Athas Crystal sphere it is therefore logical to assume that any Spelljammer within the sphere is still within the sphere.

QED You can Spelljam in Athas space.


Edit: As for Mystara, well you dont really need Spelljammers because it already has flying ships. The Princess Arc was a very famous example.

 

[Shasarak]

No, you are missing the point. Originally, Dark Sun and Ravenloft had no Crystal Sphere. They existed outside of Realmspace, etc. They were excluded from being travelled to by Spelljamming, spells, etc.. The Crystal Sphere of Athas was an addition that came about in the Revised boxed set era (and said to be impenetrable). Whether or not there was some technicality to get around the impenetrable aspect of the sphere is irrelevant to the original edition which is the only edition about which I care. According to the designers, under the original edition, one could officially Spelljam to Athas period.

That is a very bold house-rule for Athas.

Kind of redundant for Ravenloft though, as it is a planar construct after all.

 

[Greg K]

That is a very bold house-rule for Athas.

Kind of redundant for Ravenloft though, as it is a planar construct after all.

With Ravenloft, I didn't mean to imply that there was later a Crystal Sphere (If there was, I wouldn't know as I stuck with Realms of Terror and, as you stated, it is a planar construct which is why it was excluded). It is just been a long day between teaching, night classes, and finals period just beginning.

 

[delericho]

See, there's the rub. You feel that these later additions "ruined Dark Sun". Totally fair. But, there also has to be a realisation there that not everyone thinks that way. Not everyone thinks that Dark Sun (or whatever setting you care to name) begins and ends with the boxed set or some other arbitrary line in the sand that people want to draw. And, additionally, does it matter that "many people" think the way you do? Considering that the setting line continued on down a different path than, obviously, what you thought was the "true" Darksun, how can you justify standing on canon to disallow this or that, but, then ignoring canon when it's convenient?

IOW, you're already running a homebrew version of Darksun anyway.

Ed Greenwood aside, nobody runs a setting-based game 'pure'. The moment you start your first adventure you're immediately off-book. And Ed's an odd case - where his home campaign differs from the one published by the IP owners, which of the two is definitive?

Does anyone actually consult other players when creating their character? Have you ever told another player (not as the DM, but, just as a fellow player) that they can't play that character because you don't like it?

If it is at all practical, my group always start campaigns with a character creation session where the PCs are created in parallel. And there is indeed significant back-and-forth among the players, if only to ensure they have all the key roles covered.

I've never seen one player tell another that they can't play a particular PC, though.

 

[delericho]

Edit: As for Mystara, well you dont really need Spelljammers because it already has flying ships. The Princess Arc was a very famous example.

Nitpick: an airplane isn't a space shuttle.

 

[Caliburn101]

I am about to run a Primeval Thule game which I have housed ruled on to further adapt 5th Edition to the Swords & Sorcery Genre. This means, amongst other things, very gritty healing, no flash-bang or flight or teleportation spells, no moon druids, only spell-less rangers, my own rules on spiritual corruption, sorcery points from blood sacrifice and warlock-style pacts which can be gained in-game for high patron costs.

That's far more change than you will see in most homebrew campaigns (including many of mine previously) and everyone is fine with it so far... because I stated it from the start and explained the rationale and effects of these changes as I went along, and made sure there were no misunderstandings.

In my experience, the only blowback you will really get from players is when campaigns limit something they want to abuse (such as a particular race and/or class and/or feat and/or item combo) or if they feel ambushed by something in the game they didn't know about in advance and which advantages someone else or disadvantages them unfairly.

The first type of player is an ass, frankly, and not your fault. The second type has a valid point - so make sure you make things clear before they decide to play.

Players that don't want to join your game because you aren't providing access to their favourite character class or race simply won't play, unless of course you are doing this to your regular group, in which case it's all a negotiation anyway.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm curious as to why this isn't an acceptable reason for you? Seems to me no different than sticking to an older version of anything else. Star Wars without expanded universe, board games without expansions, vintage cars, etc. It's generally done because people prefer a certain type of experience (either in general or for that particular instance) which is better represented by sticking with an older version.

I'm not sure I like the phrasing "isn't an acceptable reason", but it is a bit beside the point. To break down my statement here's the full version for my reference.

I've said it a few times, my biggest problem is with auto-bans that are in place simply because the DM can't accept a certain race since they didn't exist in the 2e version of the game or because a few players have played stupidly and happened to choose that race.

So my personal biggest problem with this debate is auto-bans. This, for me, is when someone states that for now and forever these things are banned at my table, typically as per this debate I am talking about races or classes. That is the core statement, my problem is with people who said 5 years ago X, Y and Z will never be played at my table.

I then included two of the most common reasons I have seen that auto-ban that have led me to think this is a problem. One is "Well, it wasn't in version X of the game, so I don't allow it". Sure, some people like classic cars, but this is more (to me) like someone who refuses to play anything other than disco on the radio during a long car ride. You have a taste, you enjoy what you enjoy, but other people have different tastes and banning everything you don't like doesn't seem right to me.

The second example is "I'll never allow drow, because they are all Driz'zt clones" or "I'll never allow Tieflings because everyone who wants to play a Tiefling just wants to be an emo-goth and I won't stand for it". The assumption that a race can and will only ever be played by one type of person for one type of reason... well, the variety of DnD characters itself tells me this isn't true and therefore seems to be a bad reason, perhaps based on real experience, but a bad reason.

And, needing to prove myself to you before I can play the character I want to play, while I understand the logic behind the idea, is wrong. Even if you think my character is ridiculous that doesn't mean I shouldn't have a chance to play it. After all, just because I can play a human paladin to your satisfaction doesn't mean you'll think I can play a Tiefling Thief.

Now, I understand banning thigs for world building or thematic reasons, even if I don't neccesarily agree with it, but this thought just came to me. How often do you hear about someone banning High Elves, because the low magic setting doesn't have room for a race that has auto-cantrips? Elf, Dwarf, Human, and Halfling are almost never banned like Dragonborn, Tiefling or Genasi are, because people see them as core and the others as "that weird stuff for little kids" (A phrasing I have heard before even if no one here is advocating that)