Expanding the Skill System

[Xeviat]

A few of my players are disappointed with 5E's skill system. They are veteran 3E/Pathfinder players, among other systems, and they seem to enjoy organic character growth where they can pick up new skills as they increase in levels. I know 5E does have rules for learning skills and languages in down time, but they seem to find it strange that a high level character who just now learns a skill suddenly knows it as well as someone who has known it since 1st level.

When I told them that another way to improve skills was to multiclass Rogue for Expertise. That's not an option for every character, both due to attribute requirements and also character story; why would a barbarian multiclass rogue to get better at intimidation?

So, I am looking for ways to enhance the skill system. I'm fully willing to hack in something completely new or alter the level progression a bit to account for an expanded skill system. I don't want to alter the proficiency system, though, so my thought was to potentially open up the expertise and a few other systems to everyone.

Here's my first thought. At certain levels (lets say 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, just because), you gain an extra "skill". You can either use that to buy a new skill or tool proficiency, or you can use it to buy a specialization in a skill. A specialization could be expertise (double proficiency bonus), a focus (advantage in certain circumstances), quickness (able to make certain skill checks as a bonus action instead of an action), or possibly other tricks.

Of course, Rogues and Bards may need to get something else to compensate for others getting some of their tools. But I think something like this, not necessarily this, could allow for the 3E players to feel like they have more growth for their characters.

What are your thoughts?

 

[PuckthePlatypus]

I allow players to hire trainers in game, train allies during downtime, or spend extra time studying old tomes/healing the sick/brewing stuff/using any skills to try to gain skill increases.

Depending on the amount of time, it may just be a + 1-4 bonus or expertise

 

[RangerWickett]

I'd make it simple. Every level (including 1st), you get one 'proficiency point' you can spend to

a) learn a language
b) become proficient in a weapon or tool
c) get a +2 bonus in a skill you're not otherwise proficient in
d) get a +1 bonus to a skill you are proficient in (including something you picked for 'c'), to a maximum of twice your level-based proficiency bonus.

Normally you just get a few skills that auto-improve as you gain levels. This lets you diversify and get basic proficiency in more skills (which don't auto-level), or specialize and improve skills you really care about. Or pick up a weapon or language.

 

[dmnqwk]

It costs 1 Feat to gain proficiency in 3 skills, so assuming you allow feats there is already an option for them to automatically learn skills without spending downtime (which is, in fact, a system in 5th edition to allow for the ability to learn new skills).

If you would rather create a more robust system then I would consider gathering up everything you feel they can learn as they progress and bundle them into a single point-buy system such as the following:

1) Every level the player receives 1 training point to spend as they wish.
2) They can purchase anything from the list by trading in the training points:

Languages:
1 point - Language (basic). A character with a basic proficiency in a language is allowed to follow simple conversations where knowing every word is unnecessary. Should they try to translate a letter or phrase they must make an Intelligence check to be able to comprehend it.
2 points - Language (full). A character is able to comprehend the language sufficiently to become fluent. Must have purchased language (basic) to purchase this option.

Tools:
1 point - Tool (basic). A character is learning the basics of the trade or profession related to the tools. Any check to use them is made at disadvantage. Should the check already have disadvantage the character is not sufficiently competent to attempt it.
2 points - Tool (full). A character is now fully trained in using the tools. Must purchase Tool (basic) first.

Skill:
2 points - Skill Guidance. Once per short rest, when making a skill check related to the chosen skill, you may add a D6 to the roll.
3 points - Skill Proficiency. A character becomes proficient in the skill and may add her proficiency bonus to any ability check related to it.
3 points - Skill Expertise. A character becomes adept at this skill and may add twice her proficiency bonus to any ability check related to it. Must be proficient in the skill already.

Weapons:
2 points - Simple Weapon Proficiency. A character is capable of using simple weapons with proficiency.
4 points - Martial Weapon Proficiency. A character is capable of using martial weapons with proficiency. Must already be proficient in all Simple Weapons.

Armour:
2 points - Shield Proficiency. You gain the ability to use shields.

I've tried to shy away from adding the old 3rd edition (or I assume Pathfinder) system of nickel and diming your way to the top with a +1 here or a +2 there, but this should form a basis of an efficient way to offer them a more concise system of training. It wouldn't be hard to think up new things to add, but be wary of power creep when you do.

The reason I offer Martial Weapon training here is for the most part, characters who directly gain damage from having it are already proficient so it's really only a few instances whereby this would improve a characters power ceiling (allowing non-elf rogues the option to use longbows, for example). The skill guidance has a per day limit since I am sure many clerics out there already use guidance all the time, so this behaviour seems somewhat balanced, especially as it doesn't overwhelm the Bardic Inspiration option either.
Skill Expertise is a personal issue of mine as they allow characters to put their skills out of reach, which seems inept in the system design (a Rogue, for example, suddenly becomes unable to stealth with less than a 25, giving most characters no chance to spot him... even a proficient in perception character is going to struggle) so opening up Expertise is my way of balancing what I see as an unfair system (I would rather they simply had Expertise offer Advantage on the roll instead, so the ceiling stayed the same).

A level 20 character would have access to 20 points, so over their career would be able to:
Learn 6 Languages or
Become Proficient AND gain Expertise in 6 skills, 1 of which has Guidance or
Become Proficient in Simple and Martial Weapons, Shields and 4 Tools.

It doesn't seem too powerful to me, but opens up options - especially a way to stop the overpowered Expertise from being so restrictive as suddenly you find guards have Perception (guidance) just to stop the Rogue from auto sneaking past (since 1 and 20 in skill checks are not officially fail/success)

 

[CapnZapp]

Yes, this. (The first part)

Even if you don't use feats you could say "you can abstain from your ability score increase and instead pick up three skills"

 

[CapnZapp]

Here's my first thought. At certain levels (lets say 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, just because)

Simply add the option to take three skills instead of the +2 ability score increase, and you're done.

If you want "skill expertise", you really should ask the player to multiclass as rogue or bard.

Giving something like that to everyone removes too much from the rogue class.

5e is a simple game, not well suited to a complex skill system.

 

[Xeviat]

I pointed out the feat for learning new skills; none of my players find that to be a worthwhile option compared to the other feats. That and they don't allow someone to get better in the skill they want to focus on.