D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian Fix?

[MindxKiller]

So, I was under the impression that the feats had been checked for balance ... I crunched the numbers real quick, and the gap is ludicrous. It's GWM's fault, though. I don't know if it's an interaction between Advantage and -5 to hit, but even at -5 to hit for +5 damage, GWM is worth far more than +1 to hit and +1 to damage, at least during the rage.

That's unfortunate. I'll have to join the camp that feels GWM and Sharpshooter are op ...

Exactly, GWM PM and SS are vastly superior to +2 in a stat unfortunately, I suppose that's why they made feats optional: They didn't bother balancing them.

 

[jgsugden]

I've played a lot of dwarf beserker. As is, it is fine. It isn't the most efficient option, but it is an efficient option. My dwarf is just fine most of the time and is dominant when necessary. If you worry about balance to this degree, the game tends to move away from being an rpg and gets stuck in a pure strategy game. I suggest just going with it.

 

[jgsugden]

GWM and Sharpshooter are not balanced from a DPR sense, but they are more balanced than people realize. If you're using them, you're far more likely to start a combat in a cold streak and miss on your first few attacks. If so, it results in a few combats where the enemy remains at full strength longer. That can be dangerous.

 

[MindxKiller]

GWM and Sharpshooter are not balanced from a DPR sense, but they are more balanced than people realize. If you're using them, you're far more likely to start a combat in a cold streak and miss on your first few attacks. If so, it results in a few combats where the enemy remains at full strength longer. That can be dangerous.

Well, a creature is just as powerful whether it's at 100 hp or 1 hp...

 

[jgsugden]

Well, a creature is just as powerful whether it's at 100 hp or 1 hp...

Right... What I'm saying is because you have a lower chance to hit but deal more damage when you do hit, there are more instances in which the enemy will still be on its feet longer. Take it to extremes to see it more clearly. One pc does 1 damage 100% of the time they attack and the other does 25 damage each time it hits, but only hits 5% of the time. If an enemy has 30 hp, which pc is more likely to still not have taken it down on rd 31? PC 2 might take it down in round 2, but PC 1 will be guaranteed to finish it in rd 30 while while pc 2 theoretically can be fighting for 40, 50 or more rounds before landing 2 hits. There are more instances with the GWF option where some bad luck can put the pcs in a bad situation. There are also a lot of situations in which the enemy goes down faster... but the higher risk of not being at all effective is a real significant drawback that people underestimate, even in light of advantage being easy to obtain.

 

[MindxKiller]

Right... What I'm saying is because you have a lower chance to hit but deal more damage when you do hit, there are more instances in which the enemy will still be on its feet longer. Take it to extremes to see it more clearly. One pc does 1 damage 100% of the time they attack and the other does 25 damage each time it hits, but only hits 5% of the time. If an enemy has 30 hp, which pc is more likely to still not have taken it down on rd 31? PC 2 might take it down in round 2, but PC 1 will be guaranteed to finish it in rd 30 while while pc 2 theoretically can be fighting for 40, 50 or more rounds before landing 2 hits. There are more instances with the GWF option where some bad luck can put the pcs in a bad situation. There are also a lot of situations in which the enemy goes down faster... but the higher risk of not being at all effective is a real significant drawback that people underestimate, even in light of advantage being easy to obtain.

That's a vastly exaggerated situation, even taking into account the decreased accuracy, its higher DPR to use GWM against the vast majority of creatures. Sure, I might miss, but so will the guy without GWM. Thing is, I'll contribute more damage overall.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You don't need to catch up at level 12, you're already ahead.

Do the math, polearm mastery is higher dpr than without polearm mastery, it's a fact. If you compare two 8th level barbarians dpr, one having 16 str + PM and GWM and the other having 18 str + GWM, the polearm master does more dpr until the berserker frenzies, which they'll use once a day for maybe 3 rounds, which is only 8 dpr higher than the polearm master. Total of 24 damage in a single combat, they trade this for 8 dpr less in every other round of combat for the entire day


Unfortunately it just doesn't work this way, without GWM you aren't even in the same league as someone with it and the gap is compounded by polearm mastery.

Did you calculate, that as polearm master you don't benefit from extra attacks from the GWM feat? Extra attack when you kill something? Which in those fights where you are fighting low level mobs and you don't frenzy may be more common than you think?

1d4+3+1d10+3+1d10+3 is an average of 22.5
2d6+4+2d6+4 is an average of 22 damage. And you hit better.

And with GWM your extra attacks do more damage and chances you will kill a creature is higher. Even when you count the rage bonus in, you are are only looking at a difference of 4 damage at the cost of your bonus action which you can't even use if you start raging.
The only problematic interaction may be getting -5 to hit +10 to damage on your off hand attack, but to be honest, I as a DM would disallow that before I would start buffing everything else.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Exactly, GWM PM and SS are vastly superior to +2 in a stat unfortunately, I suppose that's why they made feats optional: They didn't bother balancing them.

I will also say: feats are balanced well enough if you don't stack too much of them and maybe with interactions that were not intended and not really clear:

Xbow expert and shield
Polearm mastery and warcaster

both clarified not to interact with each other.

I can't imagine that an attack with the blunt end of your polearm was intended to be a weapon that a GWM can use for massive damage.
Same problem with sharp shooter and handcrossbow btw. The lower your base damage, the more you benfit.
I would in both cases rule out that it only does +10 damage if your attack is a bonus action attack except the one you get from this feat. Another Idea is to make it only 1/turn or reduce it to -3/6.
Those who claim -5/+5 is balanced don't know about math. It would be a terrible trade in most cases as it is -6/+4 compared to those who didn't take this feat.
If you wan more flexibility: Make it +x damage which is the maximum result of your damage die and half as much as penalty to hit. This would auto balance the feat. Another Idea is making it double damage (as in the playtest) for -5 to hit.

And I have an even simpler fix that does not nerf anything: You may always take -5 to hit for +5 to damage. So if a target is easy to hit, everyone can make a gamble. A generally bad tradeoff, but sometimes worth it.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I haven't heard much about how Frenzy holds up over the expected 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day.

My hunch is that Berserker might be more or less competitive if you only have a few fights in the day, but if you are actually stretching it out to the full expectation, the exhaustion drawback of Frenzy is really going to reduce the effectiveness of the subclass (either because you are using it and getting hit with exhaustion, or because you aren't using it at all until the last fight of the day, while Totem barbarians are benefiting from their features all day long).

Has anyone taken this into account, either in actual play experience or in theory-crafting?

"We only have 2 to 4 fights in a day, and Frenzy seems fine to us" may be personally useful, but it doesn't adequately address the class design quality.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Personally I think the frenzied barbarian should be immune to exhaustion while in a frenzy, including dying of it. It just seems to fit, and fixes the problem with the ability.

As for polearm mastery... ditch the bonus attack. Same goes for the -5/+10 on gwm and sharpshooter. Toss +1 to a stat in instead. It fixes a lot of problems.