D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian Fix?

[MindxKiller]

I can't understand why you would think this, a bear totem barbarian requires only a single feat to do everything the berserker does, more realiably, (excluding mindless rage, the only great feature) while also maintaining resistance to everything but psychic, except that bear barbarian can do it every single fight instead of once a day with only roughly 4 damage per round less. You might counter with "but the berserker wasn't designed for a game that uses feats" and I'd reply with if it wasn't, it's still weaker. Without GWM the berserker only deals about 9 damage more per round, once a day, and gives up massively better durability to do it. Mindless rage is the only good ability, and if you play without feats then retaliation is good too.

 

[Azurewraith]

I think the issue is simply that the design space for "Bonus Action" is rather crowded. There are racial features, class features, item features, feat features, and spells that all vie for your precious 1 bonus action per round. I appreciate that it's limited, but they had intended to make it "not required" to use a bonus action and failed spectacularly; everyone seeks a few somethings.

Since Frenzy isn't circumstantial round by round, but across combats, it makes those other bonus action attack options underwhelming.

I got to admit the bonus action limit is crippling. Bring back the free action

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I allow our frenzied berserker to spend a hit die during a short rest to remove a level of exhaustion (instead of waiting for a long rest). No HP are gained from spending a hit die in this manner.

This is simple and elegant. Perfect for 5e. However... ... I'd make it cumulative with regards to how many times they have Frenzied that day. So, if the Barbarian has done it twice that day, they need to spend two HD to recover from the exhaustion caused by that frenzy. If they do it a third time, it would cost 3 HD to recover from that uses exhaustion. That way, as the character gets higher level, it keeps in tone with the whole concept of total, unadulterated, berserking fury! Otherwise it would seem like when you get higher level, you don't really 'berserk' as all-out as you did when you were lower level (because, y'know, you have a lot more HD; if it was only 1 each time, it's like Oh, yeah, so what? It's 1 HD; I still have 14 left today. *shrug*

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Eejit]

I can't understand why you would think this, a bear totem barbarian requires only a single feat to do everything the berserker does, more realiably, .

It's not that unusual for a feat to be similar to a subclass ability, look at Swashbuckler lvl3 vs Mobility.

There's still the opportunity cost for taking that feat.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think the issue is simply that the design space for "Bonus Action" is rather crowded. There are racial features, class features, item features, feat features, and spells that all vie for your precious 1 bonus action per round. I appreciate that it's limited, but they had intended to make it "not required" to use a bonus action and failed spectacularly; everyone seeks a few somethings.

Since Frenzy isn't circumstantial round by round, but across combats, it makes those other bonus action attack options underwhelming.

And a bonus action on top of a free attack would be frankly overpowered. The only ossue I see is the first round. And this may protect you from going into frenzy too early.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I can't understand why you would think this, a bear totem barbarian requires only a single feat to do everything the berserker does, more realiably, (excluding mindless rage, the only great feature) while also maintaining resistance to everything but psychic, except that bear barbarian can do it every single fight instead of once a day with only roughly 4 damage per round less. You might counter with "but the berserker wasn't designed for a game that uses feats" and I'd reply with if it wasn't, it's still weaker. Without GWM the berserker only deals about 9 damage more per round, once a day, and gives up massively better durability to do it. Mindless rage is the only good ability, and if you play without feats then retaliation is good too.

I believe you are speaking of polearm mastery. I hate to repeat myself but do so anyway:
- taking polearm mastery costs you +2 strength. Which on top of having a 1d10 weapon and a 1d4 offhand attack costs you more than about 4 damage. (7 damage on top of worse hit chance).
So if you did point buy you only catch up at level 12.
- or taking polearm mastery will not allow you to immediately get GWM which for a barbarian may be a feat you want to have as soon as possible.
- between damage reduction against the most common damage types and a really big hit die. Against most elementaly attack attack advantage is really a non bonus. You easily tank a firebolt without the bear totem's half damage bonus. In most cases bear totem resistance is overkill since your teammates are dead bwfore you long before.

 

[Grakarg]

Hiya!



This is simple and elegant. Perfect for 5e. However... ... I'd make it cumulative with regards to how many times they have Frenzied that day. So, if the Barbarian has done it twice that day, they need to spend two HD to recover from the exhaustion caused by that frenzy. If they do it a third time, it would cost 3 HD to recover from that uses exhaustion. That way, as the character gets higher level, it keeps in tone with the whole concept of total, unadulterated, berserking fury! Otherwise it would seem like when you get higher level, you don't really 'berserk' as all-out as you did when you were lower level (because, y'know, you have a lot more HD; if it was only 1 each time, it's like Oh, yeah, so what? It's 1 HD; I still have 14 left today. *shrug*

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Excellent suggestion, I'm incorporating this change!

 

[Xeviat]

I'd be willing to say that a Berserker at 8th level with a 20 Strength is probably comparable to a Bear Totem at 8th level with a 16 Str and GWM and Polearm Mastery, both when compared against each other and when compared against the monsters. The Berserker is going to hit more often for more damage base, and they have the ability to safely daily add more oomph to a fight, or even add more if they really needed to. The Bear is going to take less damage from elemental sources, but the same from physical damage, so in a fight against each other it's a wash. The bear is going to do less damage than a frenzying berserker (Polearm vs Frenzy), but possibly more outside of the frenzy (but at a lower to hit).

You're comparing something like +8 1d12+5 x2/3 for the Berserker vs. +6 1d12+3 x2 and +6 1d4+3/+1d12+3; or +1 to hit with +10 damage.

 

[MindxKiller]

It's not that unusual for a feat to be similar to a subclass ability, look at Swashbuckler lvl3 vs Mobility.

There's still the opportunity cost for taking that feat.

Fancy Footwork isn't the defining level 3 feature of the swashbuckler, its a BONUS level 3 feature, Rakish Audacity is the defining level 3 feature.

I believe you are speaking of polearm mastery. I hate to repeat myself but do so anyway:
- taking polearm mastery costs you +2 strength. Which on top of having a 1d10 weapon and a 1d4 offhand attack costs you more than about 4 damage. (7 damage on top of worse hit chance).
So if you did point buy you only catch up at level 12.
- or taking polearm mastery will not allow you to immediately get GWM which for a barbarian may be a feat you want to have as soon as possible.
- between damage reduction against the most common damage types and a really big hit die. Against most elementaly attack attack advantage is really a non bonus. You easily tank a firebolt without the bear totem's half damage bonus. In most cases bear totem resistance is overkill since your teammates are dead bwfore you long before.

You don't need to catch up at level 12, you're already ahead.

Do the math, polearm mastery is higher dpr than without polearm mastery, it's a fact. If you compare two 8th level barbarians dpr, one having 16 str + PM and GWM and the other having 18 str + GWM, the polearm master does more dpr until the berserker frenzies, which they'll use once a day for maybe 3 rounds, which is only 8 dpr higher than the polearm master. Total of 24 damage in a single combat, they trade this for 8 dpr less in every other round of combat for the entire day. That's going to total far more than 3 rounds. All of this is calculated WITHOUT the polearm master reaction attack, which if you add in, blows the berserker out of the water until they reach level 14, the polearm master gets this as soon as he takes polearm mastery, which is either level 4, or level 1 with variant human. Oh, and the polearm master also has the benefit of resistance to all but psychic, which you don't care about but hey, it's just an added benefit to combine with the fact that you do more damage. The only good part of Berserker is Mindless Rage. I love Berserker, and I play it because it fits my character concept, but the fact that it's inferior is inescapable.

I'd be willing to say that a Berserker at 8th level with a 20 Strength is probably comparable to a Bear Totem at 8th level with a 16 Str and GWM and Polearm Mastery, both when compared against each other and when compared against the monsters. The Berserker is going to hit more often for more damage base, and they have the ability to safely daily add more oomph to a fight, or even add more if they really needed to. The Bear is going to take less damage from elemental sources, but the same from physical damage, so in a fight against each other it's a wash. The bear is going to do less damage than a frenzying berserker (Polearm vs Frenzy), but possibly more outside of the frenzy (but at a lower to hit).


You're comparing something like +8 1d12+5 x2/3 for the Berserker vs. +6 1d12+3 x2 and +6 1d4+3/+1d12+3; or +1 to hit with +10 damage.

Unfortunately it just doesn't work this way, without GWM you aren't even in the same league as someone with it and the gap is compounded by polearm mastery.

 

[Xeviat]

Unfortunately it just doesn't work this way, without GWM you aren't even in the same league as someone with it and the gap is compounded by polearm mastery.

So, I was under the impression that the feats had been checked for balance ... I crunched the numbers real quick, and the gap is ludicrous. It's GWM's fault, though. I don't know if it's an interaction between Advantage and -5 to hit, but even at -5 to hit for +5 damage, GWM is worth far more than +1 to hit and +1 to damage, at least during the rage.

That's unfortunate. I'll have to join the camp that feels GWM and Sharpshooter are op ...