My online game has typically 1 fight per session; a 6-8 fight day would take 6-8 sessions to play through! IME the concept just doesn't work; there is no way to maintain reasonable pacing or plausibility if every day has 6-8 resource-draining fights.
D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian Fix?
- Thread starter Setryo
- Start date
My online game has typically 1 fight per session; a 6-8 fight day would take 6-8 sessions to play through! IME the concept just doesn't work; there is no way to maintain reasonable pacing or plausibility if every day has 6-8 resource-draining fights.
Azurewraith
Explorer
I totally agree next edition needs to totally revise this. As i mentioned earlier i just throw hard after hard encounter after hard encounter to soften my party up they cope for the most part.
Yes, I have. First of all, I feel the need to point out that its 6-8 encounters a day, which is not the same thing as 6-8 fights a day. Running into a curious bronze dragon counts as an encounter, as does dealing with a trap of some kind. Encounter tables contain combat and non-combat options equally. Our group has run into an average of about 3-5 combats per adventuring day, usually on the lower side.
Anyways, the barbarian in question was a dwarf who had Great Weapon Mastery, and was using a great axe. Most of the day, we battled against creatures that the barbarian could kill, then use the Cleave option of GWM. Every once in a while, we'd run into a big bad, like a giant or an ogre, with lots of hp, solo monster type. Then, the dwarf would Frenzy and go to town. GWM wouldn't work, since solo monster. But he still was doing the most damage out of the party with his three attacks with advantage with his greataxe. It just got worse when the DM allowed him to start collecting dwarf-themed magic items.
Anyways, moral of the story - Frenzy is a solo monster killer.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Even on 6-8 encounters per day, it is not every day. Otherwise you are level 20 in a month.
My fix is just sisallowing long rests after a day of travel. Mabe I keepp teducing exhaustion still with a good night's sleep. Mabe not. Still the internet overvalues great weapon master on its own. It is bless or advantage that allows it to shine. And most calculations disregard that a simple fireball does more for the damage output and reducrion than a bless for the 5 man party. If every enemy is down 20 hp on average, your extra attack for downing foes will come into play a lot more often because 20 hp are two hits using -5/+10.
My fix is just sisallowing long rests after a day of travel. Mabe I keepp teducing exhaustion still with a good night's sleep. Mabe not. Still the internet overvalues great weapon master on its own. It is bless or advantage that allows it to shine. And most calculations disregard that a simple fireball does more for the damage output and reducrion than a bless for the 5 man party. If every enemy is down 20 hp on average, your extra attack for downing foes will come into play a lot more often because 20 hp are two hits using -5/+10.
Bacon Bits
Legend
Quite honestly, if you're running 6-8 encounters a day, I still question the need for an ability as powerful as Frenzy more than once per day. I mean, a Wizard doesn't get extra spells each day if they run 6-8 encounters instead of 2-4. If you are running 6-8, then clearly your encounters already aren't draining the same amount of resources as they do on 2-4 encounter days. I'd say that your play shows that you clearly don't need that additional resource. It's hard to blame the game designers because your DM throws waves of chaff at you, or that your players are so absurdly skilled that they overcome the mightiest challenges with merest flexing of their arms.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Exactly. In 4e the assin executioner was rated relative badly too, because peak damage was valued relatively low in the internet, while in actual play, peak damage was worth a lot more than the overall damage increase.
Damage when it really counts is worth a lot more than 10% more damage overall. I have seen the same trend in games like diablo or online rpgs, where +1% damage skills were rated gold and skills that allowed you to actually deal your damage were rated poorly.
[sblock=off topic example]diablo 3, witch doctor: +20%damage for 30%more mana. If you have to commit too much resources in replenishing your mana, you are wasting a passive slot.
Instead, soul vessel allows you to risk your life much more often, having a lot better positioning for all of your spells, which may easily be a bigger damage increase than 20%, especially when you remember that you don´t need that much resources and may have another free passive.
I have been flamed a lot by people who have read those guildes... and i have outperformed most of them...[/sblock]
Damage when it really counts is worth a lot more than 10% more damage overall. I have seen the same trend in games like diablo or online rpgs, where +1% damage skills were rated gold and skills that allowed you to actually deal your damage were rated poorly.
[sblock=off topic example]diablo 3, witch doctor: +20%damage for 30%more mana. If you have to commit too much resources in replenishing your mana, you are wasting a passive slot.
Instead, soul vessel allows you to risk your life much more often, having a lot better positioning for all of your spells, which may easily be a bigger damage increase than 20%, especially when you remember that you don´t need that much resources and may have another free passive.
I have been flamed a lot by people who have read those guildes... and i have outperformed most of them...[/sblock]
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jgsugden
Legend
I said I was taking it to extremes. What I was doing was highlighting the phenomena that causes you to take down most enemies faster, but some potentially much slower. The rate at which you win is not as important as how many times you win, and GWF increases the chances that you fail while simultaneously increasing the rate that you win on average.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
What I'm hearing in response to my question/comment is essentially, "No, we haven't examined it from a perspective of the assumed 6-8 combat encounters*, because we disagree that those numbers work in actual play."
That's fine, but that's not how the game is officially balanced. It's the same issue with warlock, or champion vs. Battle Master, etc. Judging an element of the game based on not following the given guidelines (regardless of how easy, difficult, or desirable those guidelines are to follow) isn't accurately assessing intended balance.
The objection to Frenzy is that, based on the game as designed (6 to 8 combat encounters) it is weaker than the Totem Warrior options.
So that's the question. Assuming 6-8 encounters, is Frenzy balanced against, say Wolf Totem Spirit?
* The context of the 6-8 encounters guidelines is the combat encounters and XP section.
That's fine, but that's not how the game is officially balanced. It's the same issue with warlock, or champion vs. Battle Master, etc. Judging an element of the game based on not following the given guidelines (regardless of how easy, difficult, or desirable those guidelines are to follow) isn't accurately assessing intended balance.
The objection to Frenzy is that, based on the game as designed (6 to 8 combat encounters) it is weaker than the Totem Warrior options.
So that's the question. Assuming 6-8 encounters, is Frenzy balanced against, say Wolf Totem Spirit?
* The context of the 6-8 encounters guidelines is the combat encounters and XP section.
Gabriel Pendragon
First Post
GWM for the power attack? Nothing kills dpr faster than reducing chance to hit, as a miss does 0 damage. Other than the power attack option, most of GWM is wrapped up in frenzy already, frenzy already gives you an extra attack as a bonus action just because you are frenzied. Power attack is a good way to miss attacks that should have hit.
As far as balance goes, i've been in published adventures with only 2 combats and a horde of skill challenges. Many of the combats lasting 5-6 rounds, or longer in some cases as running into fights you aren't supposed to win does happen. I think the PHB puts it best for beserkers, "For some barbarians, rage is a means to an end-—that
end being violence." I find it kinda ironic people over thinking beserkers, a class that doesn't do much thinking. The point is to blindly murder anything that gets in your way. Frenzy can be used every time you rage, there are also spells that remove a level of exhaustion. see greater restoration. Some one mentioned being hit with CC when you frenzy, could always wait until after the spells are used before frenzing, or accepting the fact that counter play does exist, being CC'd while using concentration spells messes up some builds pretty badly, rangers come to mind.
The berserker is all about dealing damage, while the totem path gives more utility, the berserker does nothing but murder things. If you can roll higher enough to merit power attacks sure GWM is nice, but taking a feat you can get half of for free seems silly, other feats might be better suited, Charger gives the damage boost without the attack penalty, mage slayer to make those mages reconsider their CCing ways, magic initiate gives some interesting options, martial adept lets you do cute things, savage attacker lets you reroll a damage dice and take either result, sentinel to make sure your target doesn't get away from you. Tavern brawler and grappler can do cute things too. But both GWM and polearm master have half their components useless whenever you frenzy, and if your not wanting to frenzy then you might as well pick a different build. until the third level of exhaustion it's mildly annoying at worst, meaningless at best, and you don't take the exhaustion until after the rage is over. Which unless you get knocked out or don't get hit by anything or don't attack anything yourself could go on for the full minute, about 10 combat rounds IIRC. Do remember to call out your DM for meta gaming too. Not everyone is going to know to leave the barbarian alone to stop it's rage. You could theoretically set a touch to burn you for 1 damage per round so that the rage doesn't end until it is put out or the minute ends.
A berserker who isn't at 3 or more exhaustion at the end of an adventure isn't using their full potential. As the chance to take as many days of rest between adventures as you want is always an option. besides it's only rank 5 and 6 that can't be managed during an adventure.
As far as balance goes, i've been in published adventures with only 2 combats and a horde of skill challenges. Many of the combats lasting 5-6 rounds, or longer in some cases as running into fights you aren't supposed to win does happen. I think the PHB puts it best for beserkers, "For some barbarians, rage is a means to an end-—that
end being violence." I find it kinda ironic people over thinking beserkers, a class that doesn't do much thinking. The point is to blindly murder anything that gets in your way. Frenzy can be used every time you rage, there are also spells that remove a level of exhaustion. see greater restoration. Some one mentioned being hit with CC when you frenzy, could always wait until after the spells are used before frenzing, or accepting the fact that counter play does exist, being CC'd while using concentration spells messes up some builds pretty badly, rangers come to mind.
The berserker is all about dealing damage, while the totem path gives more utility, the berserker does nothing but murder things. If you can roll higher enough to merit power attacks sure GWM is nice, but taking a feat you can get half of for free seems silly, other feats might be better suited, Charger gives the damage boost without the attack penalty, mage slayer to make those mages reconsider their CCing ways, magic initiate gives some interesting options, martial adept lets you do cute things, savage attacker lets you reroll a damage dice and take either result, sentinel to make sure your target doesn't get away from you. Tavern brawler and grappler can do cute things too. But both GWM and polearm master have half their components useless whenever you frenzy, and if your not wanting to frenzy then you might as well pick a different build. until the third level of exhaustion it's mildly annoying at worst, meaningless at best, and you don't take the exhaustion until after the rage is over. Which unless you get knocked out or don't get hit by anything or don't attack anything yourself could go on for the full minute, about 10 combat rounds IIRC. Do remember to call out your DM for meta gaming too. Not everyone is going to know to leave the barbarian alone to stop it's rage. You could theoretically set a touch to burn you for 1 damage per round so that the rage doesn't end until it is put out or the minute ends.
A berserker who isn't at 3 or more exhaustion at the end of an adventure isn't using their full potential. As the chance to take as many days of rest between adventures as you want is always an option. besides it's only rank 5 and 6 that can't be managed during an adventure.
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