Fury over Black Hermione Granger

[Umbran]

So while changing the race of a real person in a movie is different than changing the race of a fictional person in a movie for the obvious reason, they are also similar in that in both they go against the established race of the character...

That similarity is trivial - it is a similarity of linguistics, not a similarity of the implications of the action.

We should not, through linguistic judo, come to the conclusion that real people do not deserve rather more respect for their persons and stories than fictional ones do.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

sometimes changing race/gender changes the story, and sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes that change is the point...


example... I write a story where in the early 1900's an irish immigrant faces lots of racial prejudice and NINA signs... I call this character John McCormic. A few years later someone takes and adapts the story to film (yea me I sold my book THEN sold the movie rights...) and they cast John Mccormic as an Asian woman. Does that change the story... yes it does. a few years later someone wants to adapt the movie in a reboot (yea now I have 2 movies... cool) and they cast a black actor and have it take place in 1963, it's a change but is that more or less then the last?


I would totally watch the hell out of a female 007. It's the year 2015...um almost 2016. If you say hire a 30 something actress she was born in the 70's, and was a teen ager in the late 80's early 90's and recruited to MI6 in the late 90's... I think we had very successful female spies by then...

imagine the hard drinking sexually premisquise psychopath with a licence to kill... is there anything that requires that to be male?


In a sexism thread a few months ago I did a whole gender flip thing with movies, and how you really odn't care the sex most of the time... in that I proposed a slight flip in the two star wars movies "empire strikes back" and "Retuern of the Jedi"
"Luke, obi wan never told you what happened to your parents..."
"He told me enough, he told me you killed them..."
"No luke... I am your mother..."
under the mechanics and suit it could be anyone. But then at the end of Jedi, luke in his fear and being beaten by the empereor calls out "Mother..."

 

[Maxperson]

That similarity is trivial - it is a similarity of linguistics.

We should not, through linguistic judo, come to the conclusion that real people do not deserve rather more respect for their persons and stories than fictional ones do.

It's not a matter of respect, though. The point is that going against the grain, regardless of how that grain was established is going to seem off to a great many people. Would I be more upset over a white Martin Luther King than I would be over a black Spiderman? Yes, probably. Would it ultimately matter? No. I wouldn't go see either show. Both examples go against the grain.

 

[Maxperson]

sometimes changing race/gender changes the story, and sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes that change is the point...


example... I write a story where in the early 1900's an irish immigrant faces lots of racial prejudice and NINA signs... I call this character John McCormic. A few years later someone takes and adapts the story to film (yea me I sold my book THEN sold the movie rights...) and they cast John Mccormic as an Asian woman. Does that change the story... yes it does. a few years later someone wants to adapt the movie in a reboot (yea now I have 2 movies... cool) and they cast a black actor and have it take place in 1963, it's a change but is that more or less then the last?


I would totally watch the hell out of a female 007. It's the year 2015...um almost 2016. If you say hire a 30 something actress she was born in the 70's, and was a teen ager in the late 80's early 90's and recruited to MI6 in the late 90's... I think we had very successful female spies by then...

imagine the hard drinking sexually premisquise psychopath with a licence to kill... is there anything that requires that to be male?[/q]

Yes. 007 is male. His name is James Bond, not Jamie Bondage. Now, if they want to do a movie about 003 and her people, I would be very happy to watch it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes. 007 is male. His name is James Bond, not Jamie Bondage. Now, if they want to do a movie about 003 and her people, I would be very happy to watch it.

what changes about the character though... list any 10 traits he has, and they can equally be applied to a she. Heck unless you count peeing while standing I don't know what would change...

flirt to get info... check
drink voka martine made the wrong way... check
be worlds least secrete secret agent... check
sleep with 2 people in the same movie, one being the person you should protect the other a villain... check
break rules and get away with it because plot...check
blow something up... check
get into fight with side kick of villain.... check
spout some kinda funny kinda corny one liners... check
claim to be doing it for queen and country.... check

 

[Bedrockgames]

While you are trying to get Max to look at the differences between them, it is also your responsibility to look at the similarities.

The point was not whether they were real people or fictitious people, the point was that we have all become accustomed to the person because of the way they have been throughout the entirety of history, whether real life history or fictional history. So while changing the race of a real person in a movie is different than changing the race of a fictional person in a movie for the obvious reason, they are also similar in that in both they go against the established race of the character, whether because the person was born of a particular race [Bruce Lee] or was simply given that race in a comic book or whatever [Batman/Spiderman].

In fact, I would bet some people probably know more about the history of Batman or Spiderman than they actually do Bruce Lee despite him being a real person because they are more familiar with them.

I can understand the reasoning, and I can certainly appreciate if someone has trouble adjusting due to a sense of things not being consistent. But what I think is a bit silly, is instead of people framing this as their personal preference, it is framed as a blanket rule (i.e. movies and shows ought not change the race of a character). When I think that is a judgement call that really needs to be weighed form production to production. Like I said, I wouldn't advise changing race of a character mid trilogy, but if it's a reboot or just a really long series with a tradition of changing actors (like James Bond), I find it being open to different physical types to play the role can be both refreshing to the franchise and truly allow for the best actor for that role to be selected. Case by case obviously. In this instance, there is just nothing about Hermione in particular that suggests to me she needs to be white. If they had altered the character midway through the movie series, that would have been an issue for. But this is a completely new production. Having someone play the role who looks different form the original actor in the movie isn't going to phase me.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That similarity is trivial - it is a similarity of linguistics, not a similarity of the implications of the action.

We should not, through linguistic judo, come to the conclusion that real people do not deserve rather more respect for their persons and stories than fictional ones do.

what isn't respectful though?

Will smith is a great actor... er well was a great actor, I admit his recent movies being hit or miss... there is no reason why if you are casting a charismatic and some what doffy but still loveable action character he can't play it. If the story doen't care if you are black or white why should the audience? Is it disrespect ful to get him to play you? I know that I would be flattered (as a white 35 year old dude) to be told my story was being brought to the screen by him...

My life wouldn't be much different if I were black, or Asian... some people would even say if I were a woman I would be the same person (depending on who with differing levels of being mean when saying it, but still).

now martin luther king isn't different because he is real... he is different because his race matters. Fighting for Black rights is his story...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I can understand the reasoning, and I can certainly appreciate if someone has trouble adjusting due to a sense of things not being consistent. But what I think is a bit silly, is instead of people framing this as their personal preference, it is framed as a blanket rule (i.e. movies and shows ought not change the race of a character). When I think that is a judgement call that really needs to be weighed form production to production. Like I said, I wouldn't advise changing race of a character mid trilogy, but if it's a reboot or just a really long series with a tradition of changing actors (like James Bond), I find it being open to different physical types to play the role can be both refreshing to the franchise and truly allow for the best actor for that role to be selected. Case by case obviously. In this instance, there is just nothing about Hermione in particular that suggests to me she needs to be white. If they had altered the character midway through the movie series, that would have been an issue for. But this is a completely new production. Having someone play the role who looks different form the original actor in the movie isn't going to phase me.

from a failed writer's point of view (still fingers crossed my book will sell) I will say when you explore a story making minor changes is fine... especially if you do so with an eye for how this change effect the story in theme or plot or any other element. Especially in long run stories like almost any silver or golden age comic, or any film series with 10+ movies in it. Taking a new approach could revitalize the stories... make 3-5 minor changes to the characters or setting and see how they change...

I really want to see Jamie Bond, 007 of her majesties secret service with a license to kill

 

[Bedrockgames]

what changes about the character though... list any 10 traits he has, and they can equally be applied to a she. Heck unless you count peeing while standing I don't know what would change...

flirt to get info... check
drink voka martine made the wrong way... check
be worlds least secrete secret agent... check
sleep with 2 people in the same movie, one being the person you should protect the other a villain... check
break rules and get away with it because plot...check
blow something up... check
get into fight with side kick of villain.... check
spout some kinda funny kinda corny one liners... check
claim to be doing it for queen and country.... check

With Bond I can understand people not wanting much deviation from the established type because that is a character that has been around forever and people have to buy the actor is Bond each time they change. Personally if the actor were good, a black james bond would be fine with me. But I get why there would be resistance to that kind of change. As I said earlier, Daniel Craig was a little jarring for people at first because he has slightly lighter hair than a typical Bond. Any change like that is going to be a risk. Maybe a risk that ought to be taken in the right conditions, but still a risk. I'm okay with such a change for Bond, but I don't think someone wanting Bond to stay kind of the same means they are being sexist or racist or anything like that.

To me that kind of thinking just strikes me as being overly rigid about canon. It is like when you go watch a movie based on a science fiction book and someone is there criticizing every little change from the source material. I don't want to see the same thing on the screen each time they remake something. Sometimes it is nice to have a series that follows source material well (especially for things like getting people into the books) but if I've already read the books, it isn't like I need to supplement that with a step by step reenactment on screen. I'd rather than translate the source material into something that fits the medium of film. That often requires changes.

But Hermione is very different from Bond. She has only been played by one actress so far, and it isn't like a 'type' has been established. The author herself says skin tone has nothing to do with the character, so it seems like she is much more of an open slate.

 

[Bedrockgames]

example... I write a story where in the early 1900's an irish immigrant faces lots of racial prejudice and NINA signs... I call this character John McCormic. A few years later someone takes and adapts the story to film (yea me I sold my book THEN sold the movie rights...) and they cast John Mccormic as an Asian woman. Does that change the story... yes it does. a few years later someone wants to adapt the movie in a reboot (yea now I have 2 movies... cool) and they cast a black actor and have it take place in 1963, it's a change but is that more or less then the last?

This is a very interesting example and it highlights one of the reasons I think you have to be open to changing these sorts of details. If you were to set the first story in 1963 or 2016 it would make almost no sense with the character as an Irish Immigrant. For the story to work in an up to date setting, you have to alter the characters ethnicity. You see this all the time with movies. For example mafia films. Every decade that goes by, it gets harder and harder to do an Italian mafia in the US storyline. If they were to remake the Godfather for example, they'd almost be better off doing another type of syndicate (like Russian or Albanian or something) because there really aren't guys who act like Don Corleone in the US anymore. Most Italians are 3rd, 4th or 5th generation. A character like Michael just doesn't feel as plausible as he would if he was from a background of a more recent immigrant group. I am not saying changing the Corleone's to another ethnicity is absolutely the way to go, but I can definitely see a case for making that kind of change on the grounds that times are just different now.