Fury over Black Hermione Granger

[Dog Moon]

Similarities like both list comparing fiction characters to real people? Yeah, I noticed that.

So you're trying to say that there are no similarities between fictional characters to real people? Interesting.

Hold on a second, let me get this straight. You "became accustomed" to Bruce Lee's and Martin Luther King's race?

"Established race?" No, in Bruce Lee's and Martin Luther King's cases, it isn't "the established race of the character." It's the race of a person who was real. You don't "establish" their race. Martin Luther King was black. Bruce Lee was Asian.

Well again, you're looking at the differences. I was trying to find more general words to help focus on the similarities, which is why those words aren't the best words to describe the situation. Yes, MLK is black and Bruce Lee was Asian and Batman is White and Storm is Black. However they were born or created, in the end, that is what we see.

Let me ask you this, why do you think a character like Batman, a comic book character made up in 1939, was White? Do you think he could as easily have been "established" as Black or Asian?

How about this; what does Batman's being White add to the story?

I believe Batman could just as easily been black as opposed to being white and I think little about the character could have been changed to accomodate that, if anything. It is quite possible that given the time it was created and the prejudice running rampant in the America at the time that it would not have grown as popular if Batman had been black, but I think that yes, Batman could have been as easily black without needing to change the story.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It depends on the character to me. Some race changes wouldn't affect how the character would operate in the world, but for some, it would.

 

[Dog Moon]

I think these are very different things. Yes that was a long series, but it was just one contained piece. I didn't see it as them setting precedence for how each for these characters must be portrayed in perpetuity. James Bond has changed actors multiple times and they always go for a similar look. That establishes a pattern in peoples mind (so when they proposed Craig, I was a little taken aback by his hair color). When I saw this Hermione, I had no trouble believing in the character because it wasn't like we had a bunch of different actresses playing the role over the years establishing a clear type.

Exactly. James Bond has an established pattern of changing actors, but they have always had a similar look. And you were even taken aback by his hair color. I wonder what people thought of the first movie in which James Bond was played by a different actor. I bet there were people unhappy with that change as well. And if James Bond suddenly radically changes, people will be unhappy with that. Batman has also gone through similar changes and now we don't think twice about a new Batman actor, but as with James Bond if they do something to drastically change Batman, people will be unhappy.

So far Harry Potty has done like James Bond and established a character. Now in fifteen more years if they go through 2-3 wildly different actresses, then seeing another different actress will probably not cause problems because there is now an established pattern. However, until that point, using a black actress for Hermione IS a change of the established [movie] Hermione and because of that I dislike it.

 

[Morrus]

James Bond *will* be played by a black actor in the next ten years. If not the next Bond, the one after for sure. I'd bet a lot on that. I'm very OK with the idea of Idris Elba playing the role, though he may be too old by then.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With Bond, I've almost come to the conclusion that all the roles in his agency are also "roles". As in, "James Bond", "Moneypenny" and all the others aren't names, but jobs with built in fake identities. You get the job, and you assume this new identity.

Kind of like how there will always be a Phantom, there will always be a "James Bond" in HMSS.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

So you're trying to say that there are no similarities between fictional characters to real people? Interesting.

Depends on the context of the comparison. But you know that.

Well again, you're looking at the differences. I was trying to find more general words to help focus on the similarities, which is why those words aren't the best words to describe the situation.

Agreed. Those are definitely not the best words to use, but you used them for a reason. Really think about what it means to become accustomed to a character looking a certain way and a person being a particular race.

Yes, MLK is black and Bruce Lee was Asian and Batman is White and Storm is Black. However they were born or created, in the end, that is what we see.

Are you actually comparing the birth of a person to the creation of a character?

I believe Batman could just as easily been black as opposed to being white and I think little about the character could have been changed to accomodate that, if anything. It is quite possible that given the time it was created and the prejudice running rampant in the America at the time that it would not have grown as popular if Batman had been black, but I think that yes,

I'm sure that Batman could have easily been made up as a black character. I don't think it's that Batman wouldn't have become as popular. I highly doubt the comic would even have been published.

Batman could have been as easily black without needing to change the story.

Good. We agree. Now change Martin Luther King's race to White. Do you think he would have grown to become the same civil right leader? Do you think he would have had the same experiences in life? Would you even know who Martin Luther King was if he had been White?

Changing a character's race in a fiction story is generally not going to change the character or the story. Sure, there are those characters where there race is an important part of the character or the story. Changing that character's race would change the character and the story. With Hermione that isn't the case. Imagine a Black Hermione. Does her story in the Harry Potter books change? Is it affected in any way? No, not really. Change her Mudblood status, and that changes the story and the character. The color of her skin has no effect on the story. Her magical heritage does.

Can you change the race of a real person in a story about their life? Sure, but rally think about why it is being done. Think about the actual impact it has.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Exactly. James Bond has an established pattern of changing actors, but they have always had a similar look. And you were even taken aback by his hair color. I wonder what people thought of the first movie in which James Bond was played by a different actor. I bet there were people unhappy with that change as well. And if James Bond suddenly radically changes, people will be unhappy with that. Batman has also gone through similar changes and now we don't think twice about a new Batman actor, but as with James Bond if they do something to drastically change Batman, people will be unhappy.

Importantly my initial impression of Craig was off base though. I was struck by his hair color but I've come to really enjoy him in that role. Had they gone with an actor with darker hair, who knows. Might not have worked because they may have been less well suited to the role at that moment.

So far Harry Potty has done like James Bond and established a character. Now in fifteen more years if they go through 2-3 wildly different actresses, then seeing another different actress will probably not cause problems because there is now an established pattern. However, until that point, using a black actress for Hermione IS a change of the established [movie] Hermione and because of that I dislike it.

I guess this is where i find it an overly rigid point of view. I understand being taken aback by a sudden change to a character you seen a certain way for years. But "it is change, so therefore I don't like it" to me that is the opposite of how I want writers, musicians, directors and actors to think. I've already seen the Harry Potter movies. If someone is going to remake them, I want a different experience, not a retread. If changing the race of a character fits a new vision (either because a particular actor is just perfect or because the change actually introduces a new and interesting idea), I am all for it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

James Bond *will* be played by a black actor in the next ten years. If not the next Bond, the one after for sure. I'd bet a lot on that. I'm very OK with the idea of Idris Elba playing the role, though he may be too old by then.

And I think this is an excellent example of how such a change really opens up possibilities. Idris Alba as James Bond would be a good fit but I also feel like he'd add something new to the character. I think as following on the heels of Craig, given where they've gone with him, it would be a really great fit.

 

[Morrus]

It also occurs to be that Nick Fury has had different appearances. Should he be changed back to look like David Hasslehoff, who came first?

 

[Umbran]

I didn't see it as them setting precedence for how each for these characters must be portrayed in perpetuity.

I'm not sure anything sets a precedent for how a fictional character must be portrayed in perpetuity. "Forever," is a very, very long time. I don't know what piece of fiction is so sacred that it cannot be played around with.