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D&D 5E Do you want your DM to fudge?

As a player, do you want your DM to fudge? (with the same answer choices as that other poll).

  • Yes

    Votes: 47 23.7%
  • Almost never

    Votes: 77 38.9%
  • No, never

    Votes: 74 37.4%

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
...And as I've said several times: I have yet to see a single example of these situations that cannot be addressed, 100% perfectly satisfactorily, by a DM that refuses to fudge. In other words, I have never seen a single example situation where fudging was absolutely necessary to resolve a problem, whereas every single instance of fudging could be a problem for one or more players. Why do something that has a good chance of offending someone, when there are other alternatives that accomplish the same ends but don't have that risk?...

Really good post, and I do agree with most of it. The one thing I'll call out though is this one -

I'm sure that you are right in that there are potentially other alternatives, but sometimes those alternatives don't seem so obvious in the moment. Most of the times this sort of question comes up is in the middle of a battle, for example, and you're trying to decide whether you let that critical that you're pretty sure is going to kill a character fly. It's not just that they might die, it's usually tied to a specific point in the game where it would potentially be disruptive at that time. Now this is all in the head of the DM, and may not be the 'right' choice, but it is frequently (usually) made for the right reasons. Because the DM thinks it's going to create a problem.

So, let's go to a simple situation. You let the character die. The PCs know that they can't revive them, they don't have the means. They also can't get the means for several sessions, without some significant changes on your part. You have a player that can't play until something changes.

Do you let them find a magic fountain that can revive them. Or an NPC cleric who happens to be there with the necessary spells and willingness to use them? I've never been a fan of the published dungeons that have a challenge, and has the exact thing that they need to fix it as well. The residents didn't have a need for this workaround, yet there it is. In some cases, the alternative solution that lets them get by feels like a bigger disruption than reducing the blow.

So I don't think it's 'selfish' or the DM changing things. Nor do I think it's often done because the DM is trying to impose their will. At least for me, it's usually in a circumstance where it is, at least at the time, more difficult than the alternative. Which means that yes, it was likely a mistake on my part to have that particular situation arise. But there it is.

Sometimes the possibility of offending someone, which is unlikely because they won't know unless you tell them, vs. the possibility that you might offend someone if you let things fall where they may, is a tough dilemma to solve in the heat of the moment.

Regardless, it is some food for thought, which is what I like.

Ilbranteloth
 

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Zak S

Guest
Speaking only for my game, I only fudge about once every 6 months to a year, and then only to bring the combat back into being at least possible to win. Even then only if it happens due to extreme bad luck. Winning itself is far from guaranteed. That means that the challenges are still there for the challenge oriented player. The extreme rarity of fudging and the light hand with the fudging doesn't impact the game enough to matter.

Well--unless the player realizes you do it and changes the way they act.

Again: if you're saying it's rare I believe you, but the reason to bother keeping it rare is exactly the threat to challenge-thinking.

I've been wracking my brain and I still don't have a clear example for you. The best I can do is to say that if bad luck strikes, say several crits in a short period of time on my end, while the other side isn't doing well with their rolls, it will sometimes put the party in a position where there is no chance of survival, even if they have made all the right choices and used great tactics.

...and no chance of running away? Again this seems pretty railroady. One PC goes down and many parties consider leaving immediately.

I will also only do it for non-important encounters. The party going down fighting against the BBEG is great story, even if due to bad luck. The party going down to a group of ogres they encounter on the way is not. The former the players will appreciate, the latter they will not.

Including a "non-important encounter" is DEFINITELY privileging drama over challenge. Straight up.

If my players are fighting (in a challenge-as-priority game), it's because they might get TPKed--otherwise there is no reason to have a fight. There are no "minor" encounters.

It's ok to privilege the "first the little guys, then the Big Bad" structure over keeping the players ina challenge mindset all the way through the game, but know that you're doing that.
 

Hussar

Legend
How would people react to a house rule that gave a DM an inspiration die any time a character leveled up? Or what about an ability that worked like the halfling's Luck ability?

[MENTION=6673408]Zak[/MENTION]_S would you consider an ability like that to make your decisions worthless?

This would be a lot more acceptable, AFAIC. Make it a mechanic and go for it. It's above board, and, more importantly, everyone knows what's going on.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well--unless the player realizes you do it and changes the way they act.

Again: if you're saying it's rare I believe you, but the reason to bother keeping it rare is exactly the threat to challenge-thinking.

I don't make it rare because of the threat to challenge-thinking. It's rare because I see no other reason to fudge rolls than extreme bad luck and such extremes are rare.

...and no chance of running away? Again this seems pretty railroady. One PC goes down and many parties consider leaving immediately.

Zak, when I said, "...where there is no chance of survival...", I meant it. If they have the means to get away, I'm aware of it and there isn't any fudging. Many parties just don't have reliable means of escape. A foot race is rarely successful because the vast majority of monsters move at least as fast, and very often faster than the PCs.

Including a "non-important encounter" is DEFINITELY privileging drama over challenge. Straight up.

If my players are fighting (in a challenge-as-priority game), it's because they might get TPKed--otherwise there is no reason to have a fight. There are no "minor" encounters.

It's ok to privilege the "first the little guys, then the Big Bad" structure over keeping the players ina challenge mindset all the way through the game, but know that you're doing that.

I'm talking about from the perspective of the player. It's not really satisfying to die in a fight against ogres along the roadside, but it is often satisfying if you die against the vampire lord in the tower that has been terrorizing the town.

We play this game to have fun and enjoy ourselves. If something is not going to be enjoyable, why do it?
 

Hussar

Legend
On the idea of fudging be dishonest.

Note, dishonesty is not necessarily a bad thing. In many games, it's outright expected. One deceives ones opponents in poker, for instance, whenever bluffing. Bluffing is trying to deceive opponents about the strength of a hand. It's neither good nor bad, but, part of the game. We play with our cards secret from each other precisely so that we can bluff. It's 100% expected that everyone at the table will do so. You could play poker with all cards face up, but, it would be a much more boring game. So, deceptive behaviour isn't necessarily a bad thing in a game. And note, at the end of the hand, on a successful call, cards are revealed.

OTOH, if I start dealing from the bottom of the deck, I'm going to get my ass beaten. And rightfully so. I'm changing the odds of the game in my favour. It would particularly be bad if I were to tell everyone that I was dealing from the bottom of the deck. Or, at least bad for me. :)

And that's where the difference lies between simply hiding dice (which is perfectly acceptable and a commonly necessary part of play) and fudging lies. We hide search checks, for example, because there might be a trap there and you missed it, or there might be no trap at all and there is no way for the player to know which is true. No problems, no foul. We know that the DM is rolling the dice for us and we accept this as part of the game.

Fudging, OTOH, has no formal role in the game. You don't need to fudge. You do need to roll some checks secretly, but, you never actually need to fudge. The DM might want to fudge some results, but, there is never a need for it. And the fact that you have to keep it a secret from the players places it squarely in the same camp as dealing from the bottom of the deck, AFAIC.
 

Hussar

Legend
/snip

We play this game to have fun and enjoy ourselves. If something is not going to be enjoyable, why do it?

But that's the point that you keep missing here. For ME, dying in a fight against some ogres along the roadside is 100% as much fun as dying to that vampire lord in the tower.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But that's the point that you keep missing here. For ME, dying in a fight against some ogres along the roadside is 100% as much fun as dying to that vampire lord in the tower.

I'm not missing that at all. I've never said everyone enjoys the same things. The key is to find a group that shares the same goals and desires in roleplaying games. :)
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Really good post, and I do agree with most of it.

Thank you, and I'm glad you liked it. :)

I'm sure that you are right in that there are potentially other alternatives, but sometimes those alternatives don't seem so obvious in the moment.

I certainly agree that being caught "on the spot" can make it difficult. At the same time, that's sort of the point. Fudging is the "too-easy" answer, the answer foregoes enduring a learning experience in order to get quick results right away. It's a disservice to the players, and to the DM herself.

So, let's go to a simple situation. You let the character die. The PCs know that they can't revive them, they don't have the means. They also can't get the means for several sessions, without some significant changes on your part. You have a player that can't play until something changes.

Do you let them find a magic fountain that can revive them. Or an NPC cleric who happens to be there with the necessary spells and willingness to use them? I've never been a fan of the published dungeons that have a challenge, and has the exact thing that they need to fix it as well. The residents didn't have a need for this workaround, yet there it is. In some cases, the alternative solution that lets them get by feels like a bigger disruption than reducing the blow.

I've seen a DM--with 5e, to be specific--address this more or less with one of these solutions. (It's slightly different, in that what he did was basically allow a relatively lower-level Cleric spell to work in a situation slightly outside its normal bounds, due to extenuating circumstances. And, in this case, I was the victim.) There are, however, a few other alternatives too. For example, DM calls for a 15-minute break, and takes the dead character's player aside. Perhaps an interested third party--good, evil, neutral, bizarre, whatever--has intervened to prevent them from passing on to the next world. But there is a price to be paid, should the PC accept their help. Payment for services rendered and such. If the player declines, that's a pity, but understandable. If they accept, however, suddenly that (averted) death becomes the doorway to an entirely new branch of the narrative--perhaps one more interesting than the main branch, later on down the line!

So I don't think it's 'selfish' or the DM changing things. Nor do I think it's often done because the DM is trying to impose their will. At least for me, it's usually in a circumstance where it is, at least at the time, more difficult than the alternative. Which means that yes, it was likely a mistake on my part to have that particular situation arise. But there it is.

Well, the central examples the pro-fudging crowd (or at least not-anti-fudging) seems to prefer to hang their hats on are:
1) Character fails at (or, very rarely, succeeds at) a roll when the "superior" (read: more interesting, more fun, more whatever) result would be the opposite. I still don't see a way to parse this that isn't the DM imposing their will--first, leaving it up to the dice, and then deciding they know better.
2) As you noted, a character dies in combat. This is probably the hardest to address, because a believed-TPK can be turned around more easily than a believed-single-death, but I still think there are ways around it. A lot of this type of problem is best resolved by thinking about such situations well ahead of them actually happening. That, in itself, is a major example of the "learning opportunity" that fudging discards.
3) Players completely demolish a fight because they got fantastically lucky, e.g. multiple crits and max damage in the first round. Personally, I see this as one of the worst offenders, because it's the clearest case where the fudging is "against the party." As with #1, I struggle to interpret this in any positive light--it seems pretty clear that the biggest frustration, in the vast majority of cases, is on the DM's side for having put effort into something that was easily brushed aside. So, whether or not it leads to an interesting/enjoyable combat, countermanding the players' fantastic/lucky success seems distinctly "selfish," in the sense of "dammit I made this monster, it's GOING to challenge them!"
4) I swear there was a fourth example I was going to cite, but I can't for the life of me remember it now. Ah well. I'll edit in if I remember later.

Sometimes the possibility of offending someone, which is unlikely because they won't know unless you tell them, vs. the possibility that you might offend someone if you let things fall where they may, is a tough dilemma to solve in the heat of the moment.

Sure. I don't deny that the DM's chair comes with responsibility, in addition to power, and that that responsibility can be tough to meet. I just see fudging--in the specific sense of clandestinely retconning the world, whether in terms of die results or internal facts--as an inappropriate tool for the task. If you can't think of a solution on your own, admit the problem to the group and try to achieve consensus (thus removing the "clandestine" part and making it "not fudging" in my book), or find a way to fix the problem that isn't fundamentally altering what the world produced (so that it isn't "retconning" proper). With the "character death counteracted by an outside force" thing, it's mostly the latter answer (with a dose of the former, except that it's secret between everyone but you and the player unless that player wishes to share). It's not that the character didn't die--they did. But someone with an agenda (which might be good or bad!) made them get better.

And, in general, I genuinely believe it's better for someone to be upset about something they saw and knew and understood, than for them to be blissfully ignorant of something that would upset them if they knew. I utterly despise being treated like that: when someone does that to me, it tells me they think of me as an ignorant child, someone who can't take his lumps, someone who needs to be lied to in order to be happy. I absolutely think that plenty of people don't feel that way, but I do--and while it might not be a majority, even just 20% of players feeling that way would mean that any random group has a more than 2/3 chance of having at least one person that feels that way.

I would also wager--admittedly, without data--that the degree to which someone is offended by discovering fudging (especially if they've been misled or outright lied to about it) is going to be significantly greater than the degree to which (a different) someone is offended by accepting that the dice produced an undesirable result. I'd also say that a player who cannot accept, under any circumstances, the possibility of a serious issue being produced by the dice...might need to look for a different hobby. Unless there is never an actual chance of undesirable results, those results almost surely WILL happen eventually, whereas fudging (being a voluntary act on the DM's part) never "needs" to happen.

Regardless, it is some food for thought, which is what I like.

Again, I'm glad--and thank you. This discussion, across its various threads, has been a little fraught now and then, so it's good to know that at least one person has benefited from my contributions. :)
 
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Nytmare

David Jose
It's not the "impartial randomness" that is "sacred" (I really hate people ascribing that to the "no fudging ever" position, but it's happened so many times it seems pointless to disagree anymore)--not to me anyway. It's the decision to let the dice make the determination. THAT is what is "sacred" (again: totally inappropriate word in this context). If you *ask* the dice to decide, then you should abide by that decision. If you don't want the dice to decide, don't ask for the dice. Use *something else*--whatever else you prefer.

1) Character fails at (or, very rarely, succeeds at) a roll when the "superior" (read: more interesting, more fun, more whatever) result would be the opposite. I still don't see a way to parse this that isn't the DM imposing their will--first, leaving it up to the dice, and then deciding they know better.

I don't understand why you see such a huge rift between a DM who just flat makes a decision, and a DM who makes decisions by using the dice as a springboard or suggestion as to what choice they might want to make. It's not a question of the DM knowing better and the dice not agreeing with them, it's the DM not knowing what happens and the dice showing them a possible outcome.

If my miniature schnauzer is sitting behind my screen with me, and every time I need to make a decision I ask him what he thinks should happen first, most of the time I'm going to agree with him (I mean christ, he's got 4 Ambassador Book Awards) but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with him every time (in all honesty his prose is better than his storytelling), and as long as he's not the one running the game, it's still up to me to make that decision.
 

Zak S

Guest
I
I'm talking about from the perspective of the player. It's not really satisfying to die in a fight against ogres along the roadside,....

It's fun and satisfying to people who prioritize challenge over in-world drama.

And fighting ogres by the side of the road that you know the GM will never let TPK you isn't fun for those pople, it's just a waste of time.

It's a different playstyle that you're not enabling and that's OK. Your group wants other things. You want other things. It's fine--enjoy that.
 

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