What 5e got wrong

[pming]

Hiya!

In fairness, your barbarian friend must have rolled improbably well, and not just on HP. Rolling maximum every time on 1d12 nets only 60 HP at 5th. If he started with an 18 Con, he gets another 20 HP, for a total of 80, but that would mean that he either prioritized Con over Str, or he rolled so amazingly well for ability scores that he didn't need to. Finally, in order to reach 90 HP, he also has to take the Toughness feat.

While it is technically possible, it certainly won't the norm. In any system with random generation you're going to have improbably lucky coincidences, like the guy who rolls three 18s in 3d6 stat generation.

To put this in perspective, I recently rolled up a 15th level NPC cleric with only 86 HP. Assuming average HP, she'll be 18th level before she can ignore PW:K while at max HP.

While I agree that they curbed instant death effects a bit, I also think you're overstating the issue. My players just hit 19th level last session and I can't count the number of times that I could have nailed them with PW:K (had there been a mage to cast it).

In a nutshell...yes, he rolled exceptionally well on 4d6, high three, place wherever. I allowed him to make a Goliath (probably his all-time favorite race). Needless to say, 20 Con. Max HP at 1st level, and rolled very well for HP's (I have a house rule where if the player doesn't like what he rolled for HP, he can ask me, the DM, to roll for him...but he keeps what I roll, even if it is equal or lower...I vaguely remember rolling an 11 for him once, and a 12 at another time...2nd level I think that one was). We were allowing Feats this game...he took Tough when he hit 4th level, or was it Durable? One of those, I can't remember. Needless to say...yeah..."bag of HP's" was kind of his thing.

As for PW:K...admittedly, we haven't ever gotten there with 5e. Hell, I think I've only gotten there once...with my 20th level Elven Magic-User...Denakhan... and that was in 1e, playing 10 hour sessions, twice a week, every week, and almost every day during summer vacation (ahhh...the free time you have when you are a kid/teenager with no responsibilities or obligations...*sigh*...). Anyway...yeah...that took me SIX YEARS of playing him that way. Yeah, you advance rather slowly in 1e...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[ccs]

As for PW:K...admittedly, we haven't ever gotten there with 5e. Hell, I think I've only gotten there once...with my 20th level Elven Magic-User...Denakhan... and that was in 1e, playing 10 hour sessions, twice a week, every week, and almost every day during summer vacation (ahhh...the free time you have when you are a kid/teenager with no responsibilities or obligations...*sigh*...). Anyway...yeah...that took me SIX YEARS of playing him that way. Yeah, you advance rather slowly in 1e...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

And you still needed house rules to do it.

 

[ccs]

In 5e, I have an idea floating around in the back of my brain about allowing MC, but making characters 'wait' until they have enough XP to cover advancement in all their classes at once. So, a character could start as a F/MU...they would be 1/1. They start adventuring and start gaining XP. They can not advance until they have enough XP to be a FOURTH level character...wherein they become 2/2. They continue to advance...and must accumulate enough XP to be a SIXTH level character...wherein they become 3/3. Then XP for EIGHTH level...4/4. Then 5/5, 6/6, 7/7, 8/8, 9/9, and finally 10/10...where they are now a 20th level character and are done advancing. For triple class, kind of the same, but the MAX LEVEL they would ever be able to attain would be 6/6/6, or 18th. They would never gain xp past that. Maybe I'd figure out a way of allowing the last two levels to be gained, but probably not...just another consideration for choosing three classes for your character. Maybe let the last 2 levels be PrC only? Hmmm....not sure...

Anyway, as it stands, I don't like the 5e MC rules and much prefer the 1e method (probably because that's what I've grown up with), and I have been unable to shake that ingrained preference no matter how many times I try (old dog, new tricks I guess... ).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Wouldn't it just be easier to divide the xp gained by the # of classes? Essentially doubling/tripling the total xp needed depending upon how many classes the PC had.

 

[Celtavian]

I'd also like to add the Critical Role voice actor D&D group moved on from Pathfinder to 5E. That is a fairly well known group of gamers that did not go from 4E to 5E, but from Pathfinder to 5E. They seem to enjoy playing 5E, though I think the only ones that gamed a long time were Matt Mercer and Liam O'brien, and maybe Taliesin Jaffe. They were Pathfinder players prior to 5E. I think one of the best things you can say about 5E is that it is closer to older versions of D&D. That is definitely something 5E got right.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

And you still needed house rules to do it.

Referring to being and elf and 20th level? As per Unearthed Arcana...he is a Grey Elf, with an Intelligence of 23? Maybe 24? (uses of Wish spell and other adventuring boons throughout a rather lengthy career). That puts his level Limit in MU at 20th.

If you are referring to something else...what?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Hussar]

AIR wasn't 1e power word kill limited to 60 hp? It's not like 5e characters get that many more hp than a 1e character.

 

[TwoSix]

AIR wasn't 1e power word kill limited to 60 hp? It's not like 5e characters get that many more hp than a 1e character.

Don't classes in 1e only get like 2HP after level 9 or so? By the time PWK is coming into play, I imagine there's a pretty big discrepancy.

 

[Staffan]

AIR wasn't 1e power word kill limited to 60 hp? It's not like 5e characters get that many more hp than a 1e character.

5e characters have significantly more hp than AD&D characters, for numerous reasons:

1. Start with max hp instead of rolled. That's admittedly a fairly small increase.

2. The weaker classes get bigger hit dice: d6 instead of d4 for wizards, and d8 instead of d6 for rogues.

3. Constitution bonuses at lower Con values. In AD&D, you needed Con 15+ to gain bonus hp, and unless you were a warrior-type you couldn't get more than +2 (barring superhuman stats).

4. Roll for hp at every level. In AD&D, you stopped rolling after 9th or 10th level, and gained a small fixed increase (1-3 hp based on class) after that.

All these taken together mean that a 15th level thief with Con 14 in 1e would have had 10d6+10 hp (average 45), while his 5e rogue buddy has 8+14d8+30 (average 101, or 108 if he's smart and takes fixed hp at each level instead of rolling).

That's not necessarily a huge power increase though, more of a numbers inflation. A 1e Type VI demon, makes a single attack dealing 2d6+1 damage, or whips/immolates to deal 2d6, 3d6, or 4d6 damage. A 5e balor has two attacks, for 6d8+8 and 5d6+8 damage, in addition to its flaming aura for 3d6 to everyone nearby.

 

[Maxperson]

AIR wasn't 1e power word kill limited to 60 hp? It's not like 5e characters get that many more hp than a 1e character.

Your average to above average 1e 20th level fighter had 82.5 hit points. If he was lucky enough to be well above average and have a con bonus, he probably didn't have more than +2 per hit die (not level) for a 16 con and had 100.5 at 20th level. If beyond all expectations he was among the very, very few to have an 18 con, he had 118.5 hit points at 20th level.

Your average 20th level 5e fighter will have double that in all probability. The other classes couldn't even get more than +2 per die, had lower hit die types, and less hit points per level after 9th, so they won't even have that 100 that the fighter has. For example, a 20th level thief with no con bonus has an average of 53.5 hit points at 20th and an average of 71.5 if he has a 16+ for con.

 

[mflayermonk]

Here are some HP examples from the pregens in Steading of the Hill Giant Chief:
12 MU 55hp
13 Thief 53 hp
12 Cleric 70 hp
14 Fighter 104 hp
5/8 F/MU 29 hp
9 Cleric 56 hp
9 Fighter 82 hp
9 MU 33 hp
9 Ranger 93 hp

All of the pregens have CON 15 or higher.