TrippyHippy
Hero
Monks do a lot of damage, potentially, with all their bonus attacks. If you have a +3 bonus on damage for each strike, which is not unlikely, then a flurry of blows plus extra attacks as you progress in levels start to add up a lot.
D&D 5E (2014) How does the Monk perform? (and revisiting monk spells)
- Thread starter Xeviat
- Start date
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Monks really shouldn't be the best at anything, because they have so much they can do.
I've seen an Open Hand monk played from levels 1-5. He was an excellent offense contributor. Unless you are comparing damage output to a greatsword fighter with Great Weapon Master feat who dumped his mental stats to turn into a one-trick damage stick, monk should look pretty good. He gets more attacks than just about anyone, and he can tack on special control effects (kind of like Battle Master). His AC is fine, his speed is exceptional, and he has a suite of special stuff that doesn't translate to DPR or AC, but provides a lot of benefits, even in combat (proficiency on all saves!)
His biggest weakness is his relatively low hit points. But it's a weakness he should have. Now...Way of the Four Elements...unimpressive. But the class itself is rock solid.
I've seen an Open Hand monk played from levels 1-5. He was an excellent offense contributor. Unless you are comparing damage output to a greatsword fighter with Great Weapon Master feat who dumped his mental stats to turn into a one-trick damage stick, monk should look pretty good. He gets more attacks than just about anyone, and he can tack on special control effects (kind of like Battle Master). His AC is fine, his speed is exceptional, and he has a suite of special stuff that doesn't translate to DPR or AC, but provides a lot of benefits, even in combat (proficiency on all saves!)
His biggest weakness is his relatively low hit points. But it's a weakness he should have. Now...Way of the Four Elements...unimpressive. But the class itself is rock solid.
It seems to me that most agree that monks are not the ones being best at things. What I would like to know is: how do they fare when they are at their worst?
A Paladin without javelins or a bow won't help much against a beholder flying around out of reach. A fighter who loses its weapon can't really do anything useful, and they might not shine when the enemy had resistance to damage from nonmagic attacks and the PC had a mundane weapon. A spellcaster without its focus might be crippled. Is there any situation like that where say a sun soul monk becomes bad, or are they more of a "never the best, never the worst" kind of class? I think I prefer being confident that my PC won't run out of obvious good options over being great in some cases but sidelined in other.
A Paladin without javelins or a bow won't help much against a beholder flying around out of reach. A fighter who loses its weapon can't really do anything useful, and they might not shine when the enemy had resistance to damage from nonmagic attacks and the PC had a mundane weapon. A spellcaster without its focus might be crippled. Is there any situation like that where say a sun soul monk becomes bad, or are they more of a "never the best, never the worst" kind of class? I think I prefer being confident that my PC won't run out of obvious good options over being great in some cases but sidelined in other.
How do you come out to a 20 AC by 6th level using point buy? Even if you're a wood elf with starting 15s in Dex and Wis, you start with a 17 dex and 16 wisdom. By 8th level you could boost that to a 19 dex and 18 wisdom for an 18 AC. It would take lvl 12 or 16 to get a 20 AC if using point buy. If rolling stats, that's another matter.
Sacrosanct
Legend
I played a shadow monk up to level 9 before I ended up dying. My impressions?
I did not do the most damage per round. Not even close when compared to the barbarian or fighter, but if I dropped HEX (I had the magic initiate feat) and went flurry, it was pretty decent. But as others have said, damage isn't the goal of the monk. Battlefield control is. I had a base movement of 55, and between that and shadowstep, I was all over the battlefield. Then I'd stunlock my opponent.
I have to disagree with Celtavian re: defense. I had one of the best ACs in the game (remember that you typically don't see plate mail until the 2nd tier). Combine that with deflect arrows and a bonus action to dodge? It was hard to hit me. Unfortunately for me, the aforementioned death was from not one, not two, but over a dozen arrows shot at me because the warlock with his darkness up moved on his turn, making me the only exposed PC when it was the bad guys' turn. Poor planning. Oops. It happens.
I did not do the most damage per round. Not even close when compared to the barbarian or fighter, but if I dropped HEX (I had the magic initiate feat) and went flurry, it was pretty decent. But as others have said, damage isn't the goal of the monk. Battlefield control is. I had a base movement of 55, and between that and shadowstep, I was all over the battlefield. Then I'd stunlock my opponent.
I have to disagree with Celtavian re: defense. I had one of the best ACs in the game (remember that you typically don't see plate mail until the 2nd tier). Combine that with deflect arrows and a bonus action to dodge? It was hard to hit me. Unfortunately for me, the aforementioned death was from not one, not two, but over a dozen arrows shot at me because the warlock with his darkness up moved on his turn, making me the only exposed PC when it was the bad guys' turn. Poor planning. Oops. It happens.
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
I've played an Open Hand monk at low levels.
- You slay enemies by the Death of 1000 Cuts, not by the Nova.
- Having two attacks (Martial Arts) against medium-AC enemies feels like having "Advantage" on one attack; your chance of missing both is small, but so is your chance of hitting twice.
- I am designing for Group's Designated Scout, I pumped Perception and Stealth. I warped one AL module because I could detect the threats and go around them instead of blundering into ambushes.
- I've been KO'ed after failing an Acrobatics check (to be all Jackie Chan and jump on top of a prisoner holding cell) and coming to a complete stop in front of the enemies.
- related: You are a "Fisher battlecruiser", a skirmisher NOT a tank. (British Navy history from the First World War should be a warning to you.)
- Extra-high speed is good in retreat and sometimes in pursuit, but enables you to get yourself in trouble all alone if you lose your head.
- I m/c'ed Rogue but the two classes do not overlap much (shortsword). Buyer be aware.
- You slay enemies by the Death of 1000 Cuts, not by the Nova.
- Having two attacks (Martial Arts) against medium-AC enemies feels like having "Advantage" on one attack; your chance of missing both is small, but so is your chance of hitting twice.
- I am designing for Group's Designated Scout, I pumped Perception and Stealth. I warped one AL module because I could detect the threats and go around them instead of blundering into ambushes.
- I've been KO'ed after failing an Acrobatics check (to be all Jackie Chan and jump on top of a prisoner holding cell) and coming to a complete stop in front of the enemies.
- related: You are a "Fisher battlecruiser", a skirmisher NOT a tank. (British Navy history from the First World War should be a warning to you.)
- Extra-high speed is good in retreat and sometimes in pursuit, but enables you to get yourself in trouble all alone if you lose your head.
- I m/c'ed Rogue but the two classes do not overlap much (shortsword). Buyer be aware.
devincutler
Explorer
Do you know of a lot of 6th level barbarians with 20s in both Dex and Con (and not Str)?
I hope not.
devincutler
Explorer
I agree, but I was even conceding the point of the OP, since he was saying a 20 isn't that good!
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Wood elf Shadow Monks have okay damage, better than cantrips anyway, but they're actually better at defense than offense. That is, a Mobile Shadow Monk can take out a whole squad of hobgoblin archers solo (go to long range and exploit missile catching), but it takes a while. In melee, their damage ranges from decent to quite good, but never goes as high as a Sharpshooter or GWM. It isn't until level 11 that warlocks start to noticeably pull ahead of monks at ranged damage, and the monk is still competitive in melee damage--but yeah, damage per se is not their forte, just a sideline.
The main thing (Shadow) monks are great at is mobility and stealth. Do you want to know what the layout of the hobgoblin fortress is and where all the defenders are at any given time? Shadow Monk is your woman.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
I'm not sure about human monks, but Wood Elf monks are definitely "never the worst." Pretty versatile, and over time I keep discovering new ways to use her abilities like Darkness. That longbow proficiency is pretty sweet on a monk chassis.
I suppose her "worst" scenario would be vs. mobs of low-level creatures. Like, hundreds of kobolds, in a brightly-lit adamantium cube where she can't teleport but also can't escape melee range. A Monk of Long Death would absolutely destroy that scenario, but my Shadow Monk would probably die (fighting) if there were more than a few dozen of them.
Conversely, a Monk of Long Death would probably die if he tried to solo a Red Dragon, but a Shadow Monk could probably run away effectively.
In both cases, the monk is still not the worst, because plenty of other classes would die horribly too under similar conditions.
