D&D 5E [GUIDE] Thy Fearful Symmetry: A Circle of the Moon Handbook (original)

[faria]

Why do people hate on Forest Gnome? Those racials are incredibly good. DEX is useful to every class for higher Initiative and even AC in normal form. Druid keeps their mental scores in animal form, so you undervalue INT. Investigation rolls are common for a scout.

 

[bid]

Why do people hate on Forest Gnome? Those racials are incredibly good. DEX is useful to every class for higher Initiative and even AC in normal form. Druid keeps their mental scores in animal form, so you undervalue INT. Investigation rolls are common for a scout.

Because almost every race can do 10 14 14 14 14 10 and none of the gnome features are useful in wildshape.

 

[Blue]

I'm playing around with the concept of a Druid / Wizard (Bladesong). Looks like you can bladesong in wild shape for +Int to AC, bonus to keeping up a concentration spell case before wildshaping, a bonus to speed, and if going to 6th gets Extra Attack. Has access to Mage Armor, Haste, etc. Also, for when not wildshaped can use Shillelagh for an attack stat. Both Int and Wis are kept while wild shaped. Looks like it would be more Int heavy than Wis heavy.

The question is where can we afford to lose druid levels while still keeping viable wildshape forms for the types of foes the party would meet for it's level. Get to Druid 3 for Brown Bear & Dire Wolf, then Wiz 2 for bladesong, then soem more druid and then wiz 3-6, then finish up druid? How would you balance it to be playable with viable melee forms for every level?

 

[RCanine]

I'm playing around with the concept of a Druid / Wizard (Bladesong). Looks like you can bladesong in wild shape for +Int to AC, bonus to keeping up a concentration spell case before wildshaping, a bonus to speed, and if going to 6th gets Extra Attack.

On my first reading I had concluded that you couldn't use the bladesong in wild shape, although in re-reading I don't see anything that explicitly forbids it. That said, I think a DM would be within his rights to declare a sword dance something your beast form is not capable of doing; I probably would.

The benefits themselves feel a bit lackluster to warrant the level dip; the concentration bonus is nice, but you get no benefit of stacking int outside of the AC boost, and you're pretty MAD, wanting dex, con, wis and int. I think both monk and warlock (always-on mage armor) would be superior, but it could work.

 

[Blue]

On my first reading I had concluded that you couldn't use the bladesong in wild shape, although in re-reading I don't see anything that explicitly forbids it. That said, I think a DM would be within his rights to declare a sword dance something your beast form is not capable of doing; I probably would.

The benefits themselves feel a bit lackluster to warrant the level dip; the concentration bonus is nice, but you get no benefit of stacking int outside of the AC boost, and you're pretty MAD, wanting dex, con, wis and int. I think both monk and warlock (always-on mage armor) would be superior, but it could work.

It seems to me that the weakness of a number of forms is AC, so between Mage Armor and +Int to AC it would really shore up that weakness. If I can keep the wildshapes alive longer, the physical stats that are replaced seem less important. I don't even need Con for concentration saves while wildshaped since that uses the beast Con. And at that point it's only 4 more levels (of full caster even) to get Extra Attack instead of 5 levels elsewhere, if I want to go that route. And that would give 3rd level spells like Haste - so an attack with one big attack I could do 3 times (2 with Extra attack, 1 more for Haste.)

Thematically, all of the bladesinger styles are based off of animals, and uses a variety of weapons to match the animal's attacks, not just swords (SCAG pg 142 sidebar). Much like a monk can carry over it's knowledge of martial arts to help an animal defend itself better which no one questions, I wouldn't see a problem with this. But it's something to keep in mind, worth checking it out with my DM before playing.

It's not an optimal build, but I think it's a viable build. The problem is that I'm really relying on wildshape for combat, and with missing druid levels is that sustainable at the mid and high levels. Missing 2, likely. Missing 6, much bigger question.

 

[RCanine]

Thematically, all of the bladesinger styles are based off of animals, and uses a variety of weapons to match the animal's attacks, not just swords (SCAG pg 142 sidebar).

Eh... viper style probably is as similar to the physiognomy of a snake as a hot dog is to an actual dog. Knowing how to eat hot dogs isn't going to help you herd sheep, but again, this is a DM's call.

It's not an optimal build, but I think it's a viable build. The problem is that I'm really relying on wildshape for combat, and with missing druid levels is that sustainable at the mid and high levels. Missing 2, likely. Missing 6, much bigger question.

I totally agree it's viable. I just think that there are more efficient ways to get mage armor, such as the magic initiate feat. I also think if you're going druid/wizard, bladesinger doesn't feel like the best arcane tradition unless your DM gives you an overabundance of short rests.

 

[Lejaun]

I would think the hiccup with adding something like bladesinger is that it makes your need for stats go up significantly. You are now adding INT to the mix, and needing that INT to be high to get a noticeable benefit. I'd rather focus on having a high WIS, CON, and DEX over INT. It also seems to want to force you to take ASI more often instead of a feat due to the higher need of stats, which would reduce your options in builds.

You just have to weigh whether the added benefit of a bladesinger is enough to cover the added costs.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Eh... viper style probably is as similar to the physiognomy of a snake as a hot dog is to an actual dog. Knowing how to eat hot dogs isn't going to help you herd sheep, but again, this is a DM's call.



I totally agree it's viable. I just think that there are more efficient ways to get mage armor, such as the magic initiate feat. I also think if you're going druid/wizard, bladesinger doesn't feel like the best arcane tradition unless your DM gives you an overabundance of short rests.

If you're a Bladesinger/Druid, you don't need your DM to "give" you short rests. You just take them when you feel like it, using Rope Trick/Meld Into Stone/Leomund's Tiny Hut.

However, I wouldn't do the Bladesinger thing for two reasons: even one level of Bladesinger costs you your capstone; and the Mobile feat plus Earth Glide is better than +Int to AC, anyway. Opportunity cost is too high for the benefits received.

Also, wildshape and bladesong both consume your bonus action, which would get annoying.

 

[Z. H. Darkstar]

Also, wildshape and bladesong both consume your bonus action, which would get annoying.

Combat Wild Shape merely gives you the option to use a bonus action. You can still use an action if you want. Thus, you can activate both Bladesong and Wild Shape in the same turn.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Combat Wild Shape merely gives you the option to use a bonus action. You can still use an action if you want. Thus, you can activate both Bladesong and Wild Shape in the same turn.

Hmmm. I'm AFB. I don't suppose you could help me out with a quote here? Is it a "may" vs. "must" thing?

It will be nice if so. Would be one of only two cases I can think of in 5E where you can use your action in place of a bonus action--the other is the DMG variant rules for Overrun/Evade.