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5E [GUIDE] Thy Fearful Symmetry: A Circle of the Moon Handbook (original)


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Z. H. Darkstar

First Post
Hmmm. I'm AFB. I don't suppose you could help me out with a quote here? Is it a "may" vs. "must" thing?

It will be nice if so. Would be one of only two cases I can think of in 5E where you can use your action in place of a bonus action--the other is the DMG variant rules for Overrun/Evade.

"When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you gain the ability to use Wild Shape on your turn as a bonus action, rather than as an action."

It doesn't replace the Wild Shape that you get as a Druid regardless of circle, just gives Moon Druids an extra option for the sake of action economy.
 



Yunru

First Post
False. Volo's gives two new races Unarmed Strikes with their natural weapons.
As does Alter Form, and the transition between NPC Aarakocra and PC Aarakocra. There is no evidence against them being one and the same, and at least four points of them clearly being defined as the same.

Natural weapons make Unarmed Strikes. That's all that relevant features care about: whether it's an Unarmed Strike.
 

RCanine

First Post
There's no transitive property of rules; they either exist or do not. The monsters in Volo's guide have a specific rule that lets them make unarmed strikes with their natural weapons. Alter Self has a similar such rule. There is no general rule about the actions provided to monsters.

Aside from it being completely unsupported by the rules, 2-3xing druid damage by giving wild shape forms access to Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows bonus actions would increase their damage absurdly.
 

Yunru

First Post
So what you're saying is despite every single other instance of a PC getting natural weapons resulting in an alteration of Unarmed Strikes, they must all be the exception?

Sure, that's believable :rolleyes:

Without clear rules we must go by precident, and the precident has been set.
 
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RCanine

First Post
So what you're saying is despite every single other instance of a PC getting natural weapons resulting in an alteration of Unarmed Strikes, they must all be the exception?

That's how rules work.

Without clear rules we must go by precident, and the precident has been set.

Except that the rules already were clear, and were made more clear by explicit exceptions being added for these new cases.

I understand that you want this to work a certain way, and you're allowed to run it however you like at your tables, but the rules we have don't back up how you want it to work.
 

Yunru

First Post
That's how rules work.



Except that the rules already were clear, and were made more clear by explicit exceptions being added for these new cases.

I understand that you want this to work a certain way, and you're allowed to run it however you like at your tables, but the rules we have don't back up how you want it to work.

Except they weren't clear. There is exactly 0 information on how Natural Weapons work with making attacks.
Except, of course, for the examplrs you label "exceptions". Except if every instance is a exception, then they're not an exception.

I understand you don't want this to work a certain way, and you're allowed to run it however you like at your tables, but the rules we have don't back up how you want it to work.
 

RCanine

First Post
The parallel structure is hilarious, but the reality is that 5e is an exception-based rules system. Natural weapons don't count for unarmed stikes because there's no general rule that says they do. That's just how the game works.

The important thing to realize is that the designers aren't sloppy with their words. If they intended something to work a certain way, they'd have text to that effect. Or they'd errata it. Or do a Sage Advice on it.

I think it makes sense to allow druids in wild shape to make unarmed strikes, but to allow natural attacks to be used with flurry of blows both isn't supported by the rules and would be an absurd damage boost for one level.

If you can quote a source that explicitly says otherwise, that would change my mind.
 

Zene

First Post
What's the consensus on VGtM Kobold Druids? I.e., does Pack Tactics carry over (since it is a benefit, and the wild shape is not physically prevented from doing it), and does Sunlight Sensitivity not carry over (since it is not a benefit)?
 

Yunru

First Post
Rule of thumb is physical benefits don't carry over. Likewise, neither should weaknesses.
A Kobolian Moon Druid should no more suffer Sunlight Sensitivity in animal form than a Half-Elf benefit from Darkvision.

Pack Tactics isn't something physical, so I'd say you can use it, but ask your DM.
 

What's the consensus on VGtM Kobold Druids? I.e., does Pack Tactics carry over (since it is a benefit, and the wild shape is not physically prevented from doing it), and does Sunlight Sensitivity not carry over (since it is not a benefit)?

Sunlight Sensitivity isn't a special sense, so it doesn't get replaced--it carries over. Ditto Pack Tactics.
 


RCanine

First Post
I would allow pack tactics and remove sunlight sensitivity. That's the recompense you get for having to be a kobold most of the time.

Although I'd add no mechnical downsides with being a kobold, it would be a frequent topic of conversation amongst NPCs.
 


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