D&D 5E Boy, that escalated quickly...

[Raunalyn]

This particular bit feels like somewhat of a communication issue. I, personally, as a player would never assume I had to tell the DM my character was taking basic precautions like that. After all, they already knew they were in an enemy city AND that their pictures were being distributed. Obviously, it's a different story if they aggressively denied they needed to do anything like that. My default assumption as a DM is that the characters act like competent adventurers unless the player specifically states otherwise.

And I did...until soldiers started turning up dead in the middle of the street...

I don't know...if I say "My character goes ahead to scout the manor", I wouldn't expect I need to tell the DM which side. I would assume I scout the whole area, and if something prevents me from doing so, that the DM would make it clear. Something like:

"OK, you've made it to the west wall of the manor complex, the one closest to the party. A patrol is walking back and forth along the wall, preventing you from moving to check the other sides of the complex. The manor is small enough that patrols on any of the other walls would be have line of sight to you if you entered the complex."

Once you decide to do Metal Gear Solid missions in your D&D, I'm a big proponent of making sure to spell out the consequences of what the players see, not just a visual description. Players just don't have access to enough information to make the inferences that the DM might think obvious.

What happened here was that the group climbed the west wall. They mentioned that they would observe the patrols and find a pattern. I informed them that they could see 2 different patrols, one to the north, one directly beneath them. Both patrols stayed in their patrol areas and didn't move beyond them. Someone asked if they should make a distraction...ignored. No one scouted ahead looking for other patrols. They could only see the west grounds and the northern area where the servant quarters were. There was a big house between them and the patrol to the south and the patrol to the east. So, when they moved around to the north (without scouting ahead, once again), they cast a silence spell so they wouldn't get heard, and then jumped over the wall to the north...just in time to get noticed by the patrol to the east turning the corner and running into them.

The contention is that they took reasonable precautions. I challenge that opinion and provide reasons why their precautions weren't reasonable.

 

[TwoSix]

And I did...until soldiers started turning up dead in the middle of the street...

Fair. But that was the two murderhobos, correct? (I'm assuming you're labeling them murderhobos because you've identified that as their playstyle?) Maybe they're not-so-subtly telegraphing that they're ready to move on from the sneaking/planning portion of the game?

What happened here was that the group climbed the west wall. They mentioned that they would observe the patrols and find a pattern. I informed them that they could see 2 different patrols, one to the north, one directly beneath them. Both patrols stayed in their patrol areas and didn't move beyond them. Someone asked if they should make a distraction...ignored. No one scouted ahead looking for other patrols. They could only see the west grounds and the northern area where the servant quarters were. There was a big house between them and the patrol to the south and the patrol to the east. So, when they moved around to the north (without scouting ahead, once again), they cast a silence spell so they wouldn't get heard, and then jumped over the wall to the north...just in time to get noticed by the patrol to the east turning the corner and running into them.

Honestly, I'm having a little trouble visualizing what happened. They climbed the west wall (to the top?). I'm assuming they were close to the NW corner since they can't see the south and east side. They proceeded to walk (along the top of the wall?) all the way to the NE corner, or at least close enough that a patrol on the east side of the complex could turn a corner suddenly and be relatively close to the party.

 

[Raunalyn]

Fair. But that was the two murderhobos, correct? (I'm assuming you're labeling them murderhobos because you've identified that as their playstyle?) Maybe they're not-so-subtly telegraphing that they're ready to move on from the sneaking/planning portion of the game?


Honestly, I'm having a little trouble visualizing what happened. They climbed the west wall (to the top?). I'm assuming they were close to the NW corner since they can't see the south and east side. They proceeded to walk (along the top of the wall?) all the way to the NE corner, or at least close enough that a patrol on the east side of the complex could turn a corner suddenly and be relatively close to the party.

Close, except they jumped back down, moved to the north side, then jumped over to the NE corner.

 

[TwoSix]

Close, except they jumped back down, moved to the north side, then jumped over to the NE corner.

Ok, one more niggling point, then I'm done.

Had they observed that the patrols on the north and west sides had also move to other walls? Otherwise, they might have fairly assumed that the eastern side of the north wall was only being covered by the north patrol. After all, if the west side patrol isn't checking another wall, why would the east side patrol?

Assuming that's the case, I'm pretty comfortable saying they bolloxed it up, especially since you've been telegraphing to them that preparation is important in your game.

 

[Raunalyn]

Ok, one more niggling point, then I'm done.

Had they observed that the patrols on the north and west sides had also move to other walls? Otherwise, they might have fairly assumed that the eastern side of the north wall was only being covered by the north patrol. After all, if the west side patrol isn't checking another wall, why would the east side patrol?

Assuming that's the case, I'm pretty comfortable saying they bolloxed it up, especially since you've been telegraphing to them that preparation is important in your game.

They noticed that the north and west patrols stayed in the same general area. The group tried to jump over the wall on the northeast section of the wall because they thought there was a rear entrance there. I would have been comfortable to not worry about the group having to roll a stealth check if they had sent someone ahead to look over in that area before they leapt across the wall. They didn't do so.

 

[TwoSix]

They noticed that the north and west patrols stayed in the same general area. The group tried to jump over the wall on the northeast section of the wall because they thought there was a rear entrance there. I would have been comfortable to not worry about the group having to roll a stealth check if they had sent someone ahead to look over in that area before they leapt across the wall. They didn't do so.

Cool. Interesting discussion all around, I appreciate the insight.

 

[I'm A Banana]

From where I'm sitting, we could've done the same thing on the north wall that we did on the west: waited for a moment and observed the patterns.

We didn't.

Hell, we could've just said, "we hide in the alleyway nearby and watch the guards for a few hours to get all their patterns." We didn't do that, either.

Not totally sure why we didn't, but my character is, shall we say, not the planning type, so I know it's not stuff I'm thinking of during play (too busy thinking of potentially hilarious uses of animate objects).

 

[Raunalyn]

Well, to be fair, I wasn't doing the old DM standby question that lets the group know that they are about to step into something deep...the classic "Are you sure you want to do that?"

I think my play style is a bit more free-form and I tend to let the group deal with the mess they are starting

 

[TwoSix]

I think my play style is a bit more free-form and I tend to let the group deal with the mess they are starting

It's like I always tell my kids. "Goals are a terrible thing to have."

 

[thehobb]

Poor planning aside, it still sounds a little bit like a DM gotcha to me when they got discovered.

The party has plenty of time to climb over the wall, but it isn't until they're all over and completely committed that POP! you immediately spring a guard patrol turning the corner on them. They just happened to turn the corner at that moment, not any earlier when they're just starting to climb over and maybe realized they missed something, not at a moment when they could attempt to retreat or escape, or one minute later after they've broken into the house. Maybe they didn't scout the patrols well, but that's awfully convenient timing.

If the party was surprised by the guards and thus weren't given a chance to react in order to silence them before the alarm was raised, that would make it even more of a gotcha. Was that the case?

You can blame the players for bad planning and for screwing things up, but there are a lot of things that aren't in their control that make their failures catastrophic. Maybe they didn't scout the patrols as well as they could have, does that mean you should spring a patrol on them the instant they're vulnerable? That might not have been the best choice in terms of maintaining player morale.