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D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

pemerton

Legend
Your perception of what is occurring is off. The PC has goal X. The player is making a decision that thwarts that goal. the PC doesn't know that the action will thwart his goal because he's stupid, so his action can't be irrational. He would have to be aware that his action is contrary to his goal in order to be acting irrationally.
I think he was claiming that it is irrational on the player's part, not the character's, to do the thwarting action. Maybe "irrational" isn't technically correct, because you could argue that it's rational to prioritize a narrative over mechanical goals, but at least he's trying to define his terms.
My point is that the PC's action is irrational in the sense that it is contrary to his/her interests. Hence, if the player is expected to declare such an action the player is being expected to play his/her PC as irrational. Which I think does not make for good gameplay, and is not demanded in any ruleset for D&D except perhaps 2nd ed AD&D.

Elfcrusher is right that, if you are playing in that 2nd ed style, then it may be rational for the player to play his/her PC as irrational. That's why I don't think much of the 2nd ed style!

And on the usage of the word "irrational" - I thought it was fairly clear that I meant objectively irrational in the sense of contrary to the PC's own goals, and hence not something which the PC has a reason to do, although s/he may falsely believe that s/he does have such a reason. Irrational does not have to mean knowingly irrational. The world is full of irrational behaviour, but only some of it is knowingly irrational in the sense described by Maxperson; much of it is the result of people not having a good understanding of the things that they have reason to do, given their interests and goals.

Assuming that you aren't playing D&D as a board game, one of your goals is to roleplay your character, including any flaws such as stupidity for low intelligence. That means that it would be irrational not to roleplay your character as stupid, as that failure would thwart your goal.
The first thing I notice about this post is that a particular approach to play - the 2nd ed, 1990s-era, players-provide-colour-and-characterisation-in-a-GM-driven-game approach - is elevated to RPGing per se, and other approaches dismissed as board gaming.

But moving on from that: D&D doesn't have a "behavioural flaws" mechanic of the sort found in GURPS, HERO etc. The only thing that comes close is the alignment requirement for some classes in pre-4e editions. 5 INT isn't a flaw anymore than 5 STR is a flaw. It's a stat score which will impact some checks and, at least in classic D&D, will limit certain action declarations involving language learning and language use.

Where does 5e tell me that having 5 INT is a behavioural flaw? Answer: it doesn't. It tells players that they will be penalised on certain checks, and it tells GMs that they might have regard to the stat in framing or permitting certain action declarations.

Page 57 of the Basic PDF says:

Six abilities provide a quick description of every creature’s physical and mental characteristics . . . Is a character muscle-bound and insightful? Brilliant and charming? Nimble and hardy? Ability scores define these qualities - a creature’s assets as well as weaknesses.

The three main rolls of the game - the ability check, the saving throw, and the attack roll - rely on the six ability scores.​

Nothing in those paragraphs suggests any requirement that a 5 INT PC's lack of brilliance should manifest itself other than in the outcomes of these rolls. Which is not to say that various characterisations are precluded. It's to say that they're not mandated.

If I'm playing a 5 INT PC, that will show itself in the fact that my knowledge checks tend to fail. I don't need to refrain from attempting such checks as well - though if there is another way to deal with a situation that I'm more likely to succeed at, I might try that instead. These patterns of action declaration and resolution are what establish the character of my PC. I don't need, in addition, to deliberately make irrational choices for my PC. (That's not to say that some players might not. But they don't have to.)

you might have multiple goals. If another goal is "succeed at the adventure" then you might possibly have two conflicting goals. How you prioritize them is not a right/wrong choice, it's a preference, and if adhering to a narrow definition of roleplaying that requires you to pretend to be stupid is not your top priority, then yes it may be irrational to do so in some circumstances.
From my perspective, this relates to my personal dislike for what I've called the 2nd ed AD&D style.

The sort of style I enjoy is one in which "succeed at the adventure" and "roleplaying my character" don't come into conflict. The way this is achieved is to align the adventure with my character: the adventure is some sort of goal for the PC, and the character of the PC is then demonstrated in the action declarations that are made in pursuit of that goal.

In this style, there's no need to introduce "stupid" choices for my PC to demonstrate that my PC is not an intellectual sort of character - that will already be demonstrated in the action declaration choices and the goals chosen for my PC.

To give a concrete example: at one stage in my 4e game, the player of the dwarven fighter-cleric wanted to reforge the dwarven thrower artefact Whelm into a two-handed maul Overwhelm. To do this, he drew upon the resources of the dwarven community, and the culmination of his participation in the process demonstrated his toughness, not his intellect: when the dwarven artificers were having trouble holding down the hammer as the magical energies were building up in the forge, the PC shoved his hands into the forge and physically took hold of the hammer so that the artificers could apply their tongs. This goal - of reforging a weapon - and this way of doing it - of drawing on the community resources, and of relying - at the crux - on his own physical prowess - show us the character of this PC (as a physical rather than intellectual type; as a leader rather than a loner; etc).

That same actual play link also illustrates how the superior intelligence of the invoker/wizard PC in the game manifests itself: he is the one who comes up with the legal arguments in a court case; who resolves the intellectual challenge of how to manage the arcane process of turning Whelm into Overwhelm; etc.

When you have these two patterns of play happening side-by-side, there is no need to trade off between "the adventure" and characterisation of the PC: playing the game, and pursuing the PCs' goals, also makes it clear that one is an intellectual and the other is not. There is no additional need to insist upon the player roleplaying his 8 INT as some sort of stupidty or inability to make good decisions.

Now, if the main focus of play is goals set by the GM; and if the action resolution mechanics don't provide the scope for the different PCs to manifest their differences in action declaration and action resolution; then I can see how there is pressure on the player of a low-INT character to manifest that through characterisation choices like making "stupid" choices. But that pressure is the result of a broader approach to play - what I've called the 2nd ed approach - which is not the only way to come at the game.
 

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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Doubling down on your mischaracterization is not helping you.
Max, no.

A 50 IQ does not say anything remotely like an exact way to play it. I have also said multiple times that it can be played multiple ways, but you couldn't mention that because it would make your statement wrong.
You know what I said, you're misrepresenting it by being overly pedantic about the words I used and ignoring their context - and you know that your arguments paint a vision of what you believe to be the right way to role-play a low-intelligence score and that not everyone actually shares that same definition of what "role-playing stupid" means as you do - though that doesn't mean we're all doing what you call "bad role-playing" and not playing any kind of stupid at all in differing, as you have constantly implied throughout the thread.
 


G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Great post, pemerton.

It seems there is a particular (and even peculiar) version of roleplaying out there, one in which the players around the table attempt to "act like their character" as consistently as possible, and the game for those players consists of trying to not break character. To me it sounds uninteresting, and an arbitrary game goal. Sort of like saying, "Ok, the goal is to say everything in pig-latin. If you forget to use pig-latin, or use it improperly, we'll all give you the stink eye for breaking immersion."

I can see how this approach would also give rise to the strictest anti-metagaming interpretation: "If your character doesn't know that trolls regenerate, and you use fire, you're clearly not acting in-character." Yup, given the previous definition of "roleplaying" I agree that's a consistent interpretation.

(As an aside, I have observed that adherents of this playstyle often claim to have been playing with the same group of people for a long time, rather than at different tables with different people. I don't know which is cause and which is effect, but if true it's an interesting correlation.)

The part I find rather astonishing is the insistence that this *is* roleplaying, and everything else isn't. I'll agree that it is a *kind* of roleplaying, but certainly not the only one, and one that honestly takes mere discipline more than actual narrative skill.

For one thing, in my experience most gamers are...let's face it...pretty bad actors. So forcibly staying "in-character" on even the most mundane details is both time consuming and often quite painful to witness. I'd *much* rather have players wait until they have opportunities to play their character in a meaningful, illustrative way, rather than trying to narrate and act every sword swing and "hail, fellow".

It reminds me of how really good dialog writers (e.g. Cormac McCarthy, Elmore Leonard) can be very sparse with description, and they don't embellish actions with adverbs, preferring to use dialog. They don't describe *everything*, just the bits that convey the most information. A woman will have nothing described but her scarf, and yet somehow you have the whole picture. Most times when a character does something it's simply done with a naked, simple verb, sans embellishment, but by then you already have a good sense of the character so you imagine the details yourself. I think "good" roleplaying is the same way: you're mostly out-of-character, but you know when to describe the bits that give the best impression of your character to the rest of the table.

Because that's what I value in roleplaying: not your ability to stay in-character, which again feels like a contrived exercise, but your ability to contribute to a good story.

So do I care if the player of an INT 5 character solves a puzzle? Do I want the INT 5 character to sit quietly at the table and not participate in solving riddles? Not in the least. If that player can solve (or not solve) the puzzle in a way that reinforces and expands on the colorful, unique character he/she has built, then that's awesome. But the absence of that is not a negative. I don't expect players to make great narrative contributions every time they speak.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

The counterargument of "Nuh uh!" leaves much to be desired.

You know what I said, you're misrepresenting it by being overly pedantic about the words I used and ignoring their context - and you know that your arguments paint a vision of what you believe to be the right way to role-play a low-intelligence score and that not everyone actually shares that same definition of what "role-playing stupid" means as you do - though that doesn't mean we're all doing what you call "bad role-playing" and not playing any kind of stupid at all in differing, as you have constantly implied throughout the thread.

Given that I have said that there are many ways to play a low intelligence, it's clear that you are misrepresenting what I have said. I have only said that it is bad roleplay to play a low intelligence as other than low, not that I have some specific way to play low I mind. Nor have I ever implied anything other than that.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I have only said that it is bad roleplay to play a low intelligence as other than low, not that I have some specific way to play low I mind. Nor have I ever implied anything other than that.

Except you have made very clear that you think it's bad roleplaying if the player takes any action that doesn't demonstrate low intelligence. So maybe you've not been specific about how to "play dumb" but you're very specific that it must always be done.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Except you have made very clear that you think it's bad roleplaying if the player takes any action that doesn't demonstrate low intelligence. So maybe you've not been specific about how to "play dumb" but you're very specific that it must always be done.

You might be right if it wasn't an absolute fact that you're wrong. I've explicitly said that stupid PCs don't have to only act stupid, only that they have to be roleplayed as stupid. Even stupid people do things right a good portion of the time.

Let's examine your response to me here.

Except you have made very clear that you think it's bad roleplaying if the player takes any action that doesn't demonstrate low intelligence.

Since I have explicitly said otherwise, this is a deliberate twisting of my argument.

So maybe you've not been specific about how to "play dumb" but you're very specific that it must always be done.

Response to your fabrication.

Classic Strawman.

How about you respond to my actual arguments and not ones that you invent for me?
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
You might be right if it wasn't an absolute fact that you're wrong. I've explicitly said that stupid PCs don't have to only act stupid, only that they have to be roleplayed as stupid. Even stupid people do things right a good portion of the time.

Let's examine your response to me here.



Since I have explicitly said otherwise, this is a deliberate twisting of my argument.



Response to your fabrication.

Classic Strawman.

How about you respond to my actual arguments and not ones that you invent for me?

How about I admit that I've misinterpreted what you've been saying? Perhaps I have reading comprehension issues, or perhaps you weren't clear (honestly it's not worth going back and doing forensics) but I'll take what you claim above at face value. It's just not the impression I got.

So no fabrication, no twisting, no Strawman. (That word seems to be appearing in this thread a lot.)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
How about I admit that I've misinterpreted what you've been saying? Perhaps I have reading comprehension issues, or perhaps you weren't clear (honestly it's not worth going back and doing forensics) but I'll take what you claim above at face value. It's just not the impression I got.

So no fabrication, no twisting, no Strawman. (That word seems to be appearing in this thread a lot.)

People seem to like to twist what I say. It happens a lot.

What I am saying is that stupid PC are stupid and should be roleplayed that way. That doesn't mean that everything they do has to be stupid. I played D&D for many years with someone whose intelligence was probably 7-8. His primary flaw, besides occasionally just doing something really freaking stupid, was slowness. It would take him days to come up with a plan that I could come up with in under a minute. Same plan, much slower processing speed. I would have no problem with a PC being played as really slow and only occasionally doing something really stupid.

There are tons of ways to play a stupid PC. My only issue is when people play a stupid PC as if they weren't stupid. That's bad roleplay, even if the group is okay with it. If the group is okay with it, then it's not a wrong way to play, but it doesn't become good roleplay.

I'll go on the record (yet again) and say that there is only one wrong way to play D&D. That's if the players, including the DM, aren't having fun. If you're having fun, you are doing it right for your group. Right =/= good roleplay, though.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Ok, I think we're maybe *almost* on the same page.

The only quibble I have is that, for me, the absence of roleplaying isn't necessarily bad roleplaying.

If the player of the low INT character narrates how his dimwitted character came up with the solution to a puzzle, that could be good roleplaying.

If he narrates how his dimwitted character performed cites ancient texts and does multivariable calculus in his head, that's probably bad roleplaying.

But if he just has a solution to the puzzle and offers the solution to the rest of the table, that's neither kind of roleplaying. That's just playing the game.
 

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