D&D 5E When -5/+10 starts becoming Very Reliable?

[FrogReaver]

Mind calculating the percentages. (Keep in mind +2 asi means about 20% more damage)

Ok, let's look at that EK since you are so insistent

+ 13 to hit
1d6+6 damage
4 attacks per round.

That's pretty bad-ass to start with. Let's look at my above examples.

Vs AC 19: chance to hit is 75%. Average effective damage/ attack is 9.5 X 0.75 = 7.125
Vs AC 15: Chance to hit is 95%. Average effective damage/ attack is 9.5 X 0.75 = 9.025

Let's see what happens if he goes sharpshooter:
Vs AC 19: chance to hit is 50%. Average effective damage/ attack is 19.5 X 0.5 = 9.75
Vs AC 15: Chance to hit is 70%. Average effective damage/ attack is 19.5 X 0.7 = 13.65


So this guy will do 2.625 and 4.625 more per attack using this feat. Oh it's very nice, no doubt about that! But he's not *doubling* his damage! He might be double other party members, but that's mostly because he's (or she) is a highly skilled archer, not because of the feat.

 

[Flamestrike]

The Great Weapon Master feat and Sharpshooter feat seem to be generally regarded as OP for what they are. In theory the -5 part of the feat means you miss a bit to trade off the extra damage. Her is the current party we have.

Barbarian (beast one). Has GWM
Diviner Wizard
Monk (way of the fist)
Cleric (nature)
Bard (Valor) archer/sharpshooter.

And yesterday we had a Battlemaster fighter and next week we have another player coming in. The cleric has discovered she s better off casting bless in a level 3 slot as it will probably deal more damage than say spirit guardian in this party.

Barbarian often has advantage via class abilities or Monk knocking crap prone. Faerie fire sometimes gets used along with bless, bard dice etc. Yesterday the Barbarian got 4 attacks a round at level 5 (2+haste+battlemaster) with all of them hitting at -5 for something like 74-78 damage which was more than the rest of the party put together. Ways to offset the -5 part.

Advantage granting (various ways to get it)
Bard Dice
Portend
Bless

Thats an insane amount of resource expenditure though for a party of mid level. Haste (3rd level spell), Bless (cast from a 3rd level slot), 1 superiority dice for a 4th attack, plus granting advantage to the Barbarians foes (meaning an increased loss of HP and HD). Possibly also bardic inspiration.

Also the opportunity cost - it costs the fighter and barbarians reaction, and the cleric and wizards concentration slot (and they both now need to stay out of melee or avoid getting damaged to keep those spells up).

I dont want to rehash the whole 'the game is balanced around a six encounter adventuring day' argument again, but thats how you 'fix' it. You clap the party on the back for doing well, then throw five to six more encounters at them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Thats an insane amount of resource expenditure though for a party of mid level. Haste (3rd level spell), Bless (cast from a 3rd level slot), 1 superiority dice for a 4th attack, plus granting advantage to the Barbarians foes (meaning an increased loss of HP and HD). Possibly also bardic inspiration.

Also the opportunity cost - it costs the fighter and barbarians reaction, and the cleric and wizards concentration slot (and they both now need to stay out of melee or avoid getting damaged to keep those spells up).

I dont want to rehash the whole 'the game is balanced around a six encounter adventuring day' argument again, but thats how you 'fix' it. You clap the party on the back for doing well, then throw five to six more encounters at them.

It still works on 6-8 encounters as you do not need to bless the whole party. If you go with the 6-8 short rest expectation and the 2 short rest expectation you can short rest every 2-3 fights to get ki points and bard dice back. We had a 7 hour session yesterday we got through 8 combats or so several of which were above deadly in terms of the encounter rules. We had 2 short rests IIRC.

 

[Flamestrike]

It still works on 6-8 encounters as you do not need to bless the whole party. If you go with the 6-8 short rest expectation and the 2 short rest expectation you can short rest every 2-3 fights to get ki points and bard dice back. We had a 7 hour session yesterday we got through 8 combats or so several of which were above deadly in terms of the encounter rules. We had 2 short rests IIRC.

If the cleric gets damaged though, the spell drops. Im fine with the party 'leader' in the cleric using his concentration to buff the party.

Im struggling to see how bless and haste can be repeatedly cast and then maintained all day long, through 8 encounters and 2 short rests without dropping. And speaking of spells dropping, having haste go down in the middle of an encounter is bad news. These are long rest resources; they should be potent when used, but need to used sparingly.

As a side note, how did the short rest classes play out over the longer AD? Sounds like the Bards inspiration, the Monks Ki and fighters sup dice stood out a lot more than they ordinarily do.

 

[Celtavian]

Ok, let's look at that EK since you are so insistent

+ 13 to hit
1d6+6 damage
4 attacks per round.

That's pretty bad-ass to start with. Let's look at my above examples.

Vs AC 19: chance to hit is 75%. Average effective damage/ attack is 9.5 X 0.75 = 7.125
Vs AC 15: Chance to hit is 95%. Average effective damage/ attack is 9.5 X 0.75 = 9.025

Let's see what happens if he goes sharpshooter:
Vs AC 19: chance to hit is 50%. Average effective damage/ attack is 19.5 X 0.5 = 9.75
Vs AC 15: Chance to hit is 70%. Average effective damage/ attack is 19.5 X 0.7 = 13.65


So this guy will do 2.625 and 4.625 more per attack using this feat. Oh it's very nice, no doubt about that! But he's not *doubling* his damage! He might be double other party members, but that's mostly because he's (or she) is a highly skilled archer, not because of the feat.

It's the feat. I'm giving you a courtesy heads up before I leave the thread. We've had two or more of these threads with math heads going back and forth for 20 plus pages...maybe 30 or 40 pages. A bunch of us have hashed this out ad infinitum. It keeps on coming up even when we show how powerful the feat is in a party environment. Sure, it looks fine on paper when one guy is using it. Once you start to play and players start looking to optimize for it with tactics, it becomes a damage machine that far exceeds anyone not using it save perhaps a smiting paladin unloading or a sorlock.

It's a strong feat that leads to optimization for its use.

Now I leave the thread. Enjoy the debate if it continues. I've had it too many times. I know how powerful it is. That's why there is always one or more players in my group that take Sharpshooter.

 

[Zardnaar]

If the cleric gets damaged though, the spell drops. Im fine with the party 'leader' in the cleric using his concentration to buff the party.

Im struggling to see how bless and haste can be repeatedly cast and then maintained all day long, through 8 encounters and 2 short rests without dropping. And speaking of spells dropping, having haste go down in the middle of an encounter is bad news. These are long rest resources; they should be potent when used, but need to used sparingly.

As a side note, how did the short rest classes play out over the longer AD? Sounds like the Bards inspiration, the Monks Ki and fighters sup dice stood out a lot more than they ordinarily do.

Clerics get a save to avoid and it is only DC 10. THye can bless themselve, 14 con or so and they get +4.5 on average on the save. Call it +5 and they make the save 80% of the time. The cleric always blesses herself. THe bard dice also buf saves, the wizard portent ability also can make the save automatic if it is critical, and clerics often have warcaster or resilient (constitution).

The short rest classes can mor or less blow 2 ki points/bard dice every ecnounterfor 2-3 encounters before they run out, Even if they do run out its not the end of the world. The healer feat is also short rest based, a cleric can cast 9 spells per day (say 6 blesses at lvl 5 and a few prayer of healings) an the bard in addition to bard dice can cast things like faerie fire and dissonant whispers to enable more attacks and/or advanatage. The monk can knock stuff prone for advantage vs melee attacks.

Bless doesn't get used on easier fights or if it does its is a level 1 spell slot.

The spell catsers often pace themselves and use 1 level 3 spell per combat. They have 2 each so that is a fireball or haste, a level 3 bless, or a hypnotic pattern or whatever every single fight almost. If they have some slots left over towards the end of the day they can do things like haste+bless+ whatever. They do not tend to use the big gun spells early or on easy fights.

 

[Flamestrike]

Clerics get a save to avoid and it is only DC 10. THye can bless themselve, 14 con or so and they get +4.5 on average on the save. Call it +5 and they make the save 80% of the time. The cleric always blesses herself.

The cleric should bless themselves. That generally leaves 2-3 people left over (fighters and barbarians getting it first).

THe bard dice also buf saves, the wizard portent ability also can make the save automatic if it is critical, and clerics often have warcaster or resilient (constitution).

More resources involved and opportunity cost (a feat that could have been spend elsewhere) now enters the fray.

The short rest classes can mor or less blow 2 ki points/bard dice every ecnounterfor 2-3 encounters before they run out, Even if they do run out its not the end of the world. The healer feat is also short rest based, a cleric can cast 9 spells per day (say 6 blesses at lvl 5 and a few prayer of healings) an the bard in addition to bard dice can cast things like faerie fire and dissonant whispers to enable more attacks and/or advanatage. The monk can knock stuff prone for advantage vs melee attacks.

The spell catsers often pace themselves and use 1 level 3 spell per combat. They have 2 each so that is a fireball or haste, a level 3 bless, or a hypnotic pattern or whatever every single fight almost. If they have some slots left over towards the end of the day they can do things like haste+bless+ whatever. They do not tend to use the big gun spells early or on easy fights

Thats about the sweet spot for mine.

The fights are mook heavy I take it, and a good mix of 'brutes' 'mooks' and 'caster/ leader' types?

For a party of around mid level (5-10) you really get a good balance of encounters that you can use. Orc mage [shield/ misty step/ mirror image/ dispell magic/ fireball/ counterspell] plus an Orog or two and a handfull of Orc warriors. Flying foes peppering the party with ranged attacks or airborne dragons with breath weapons. A Troll, his two pet rust monsters (bitey and slag) and his elephant steed (tusky) and so forth.

 

[Zardnaar]

The cleric should bless themselves. That generally leaves 2-3 people left over (fighters and barbarians getting it first).



More resources involved and opportunity cost (a feat that could have been spend elsewhere) now enters the fray.



Thats about the sweet spot for mine.

The fights are mook heavy I take it, and a good mix of 'brutes' 'mooks' and 'caster/ leader' types?

For a party of around mid level (5-10) you really get a good balance of encounters that you can use. Orc mage [shield/ misty step/ mirror image/ dispell magic/ fireball/ counterspell] plus an Orog or two and a handfull of Orc warriors. Flying foes peppering the party with ranged attacks or airborne dragons with breath weapons. A Troll, his two pet rust monsters (bitey and slag) and his elephant steed (tusky) and so forth.

We have been fighitng a lot of Orcs, Orogs, Eye of Gruumsh type encounters often backed up with Ogres.

 

[Flamestrike]

We have been fighitng a lot of Orcs, Orogs, Eye of Gruumsh type encounters often backed up with Ogres.

Intrestingly these encounters are pretty much geared up for GWM fighters - all have medium-low AC (barring the Orogs) and are either high hit point monsters (perfect targets for GWM), or lots of mooks (bonus action cleave).

I would throw an Orc Wicca (use Mage stats) at them for a surprise. Watch the lols when the party mage and cleric get lightning bolted, and their counterspell gets counterspelled, and haste and bless drop mid battle.

Maybe a 'War troll' type encounter to mirror Moria, with an 'War Ogre' in Plate (AC 18), 30' move, 14HD (120 HP), Str 20, prof in athletics and Str save proficiency, multiattack with a greatsword at +8 (4d6+5), CR 5 monster. Maybe give it a legendary save or two and one or two legendary actions and sit back and enjoy the chaos as the players try and figure out what youve thrown at them.

An Orog champion with a few extra HD and HP, an increase in proff to +3, the brute (double dice damage) and knights parry (+3 to AC as a reaction) ability would also be epic.

The moral of the story is keep em guessing. Sounds like they know what encounters to use what abilities on, and when to use GWM/ Bless/ Haste and when not to.

 

[Ancalagon]

Mind calculating the percentages. (Keep in mind +2 asi means about 20% more damage)

What's +2 asi?

Anyway, percentage calculation should be trivial: 13 to hit vs AC 19 means that a you need to roll 6 or higher to hit 19. This translate to 15/20, or 75% hit probability. (*please* let me know if this is wrong, because if it is 5e has introduced changes I am unaware of).

I'll note that the feat gets better when the AC is lower (or the to-hit is higher). However,the feat gets *worse* when your base damage is higher! A reduction in to-hit probability reduces the % of hitting, thus reduces the amount of base damage applied. For the feat to be worth it, the amount of damage gained via the feat must be fairly significant to compensate.