D&D 5E Clerics and Wisdom

[GX.Sigma]

You're making the assumption that the power that a god entrusts a cleric is directly based upon the cleric's ability to schmooze their way up in the church hierarchy and bring in converts. I do not believe that that has ever been official lore.

On Hallowed Ground (1996), page 13. "The main function of a priest is to proselytize, to draw others into the worship of the power. It doesn't matter if the flock comes in terror or adoration, as long as the people feed the god their beliefs.
...Those who don't (or can't) inspire sufficient emotion and belief are utter failures, and won't remain priests for long.
...Why do some priest fail to deliver the faithful? For some, it's just a lack of charisma."

 

[Fanaelialae]

When I look at some of the classic examples of inspirational prophets, a powerful charisma seems to be pretty central - they attract followers, are known to work miracles, etc. I don't think there's any general pattern of them having sound judgement, though, which is what WIS tends to imply.

I can think of a number of classic examples who would be defined by high wisdom, low charisma. Figures from religious stories who defied logic to follow their faith, but who often had a great deal of difficulty (or failed utterly) in swaying the masses to do likewise.

Keep in mind that when relating to religion, the sound judgement of wisdom is different than that of a monk without strong religious leanings. Since you believe in something greater than yourself, it becomes a matter of faith. Assuming you're playing a cleric of Pelor, if Pelor tells you to lead his faithful through the Swamp of Horrible Doom, then you do it, even though doing so under other circumstances would almost certainly be an unsound decision. In this case it isn't, because your cleric should have faith that Pelor has the best interests of his faithful in mind.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I also think Charisma should be the Cleric stat, but for entirely different reasons.

From a secular perspective, clerics have power because of their ability to manipulate the emotions of the masses. To read from the scriptures and spread the word. To perform ceremonies and rituals. To threaten people with eternal punishment unless they do what the holy book says. To be a leader of the community. Public speaking. Demagoguery. Human influence. Performance, Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation. This is all Charisma stuff.

In D&D lore, Clerics get power from the gods. The gods have power because people believe in them. A Cleric's job is to get more people to believe in his god. Whether through good acts (Clerics of Chauntea spreading love and health) or evil (Clerics of Bhaal spreading death and fear), it is primarily a matter of influencing other peoples' feelings. That's Charisma.

I know a whole lot of uncharismatic priests. Charisma is the last thing that gets you the job.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Keep in mind that, from the word Go back in the first days of D&D, clerics were never meant to be your average priest, or even necessarily your average spellcasting priest. They were warriors for their gods, crusaders on the battlefield, spreading the faith not by proselytizing but by smiting the enemies of deity and Church.

Some of that focus has faded over the years, with the introduction of the paladin class and various ways of customizing the cleric--spheres, domains, what have you--but as initially described when their identity was first firmly established, they were far more likely to put a mace upside your head than knock on the door and try to sell you "The Watchtower."

Also, clerics were created specifically as vampire-hunters. More specifically, antagonists to a specific PC vampire.

 

[pemerton]

I can think of a number of classic examples who would be defined by high wisdom, low charisma. Figures from religious stories who defied logic to follow their faith, but who often had a great deal of difficulty (or failed utterly) in swaying the masses to do likewise.

Keep in mind that when relating to religion, the sound judgement of wisdom is different than that of a monk without strong religious leanings. Since you believe in something greater than yourself, it becomes a matter of faith. Assuming you're playing a cleric of Pelor, if Pelor tells you to lead his faithful through the Swamp of Horrible Doom, then you do it, even though doing so under other circumstances would almost certainly be an unsound decision. In this case it isn't, because your cleric should have faith that Pelor has the best interests of his faithful in mind.

I don't really see what this notion of faithfulness or resolution has to do with wisdom, which is about sound judgment (in ordinary language, and also the AD&D PHB p 11) or about "perception and insight" and also "intuition" (per the 5e SRD pp 76, 82).

If Pelor was being subtle in sending signs and portents, I could see that a character needs perception, insight and intuition to notice them. But in the classic stories of prophets and miracle workers, the signs tend to be transmitted rather blatantly (eg via visions) rather than with subtlety.

 

[MrHotter]

I houserule letting some casters classes decide on charisma, wisdom, or intelligence depending on what kind of caster they want to play. I'm still pretty strict on Wizards using int since the class revolves around studying spells, but I let warlocks and sorcerers pick wisdom instead of charisma if they want.

If a cleric of the knowledge domain wants to use intelligence as their casting ability I see how that makes sense. If a cleric of a love god wants charisma as their casting ability, then that makes sense to me too.

One of the main reasons I let players pick is so that they are playing the type of character they want to play. If the dragonborn hermit warlock would rather be better as survival than persuasion then I'd like to accommodate that.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

When I look at some of the classic examples of inspirational prophets, a powerful charisma seems to be pretty central - they attract followers, are known to work miracles, etc. I don't think there's any general pattern of them having sound judgement, though, which is what WIS tends to imply.

You know, in a real-life setting, one could argue that if you can work miracles, the fact that you're attracting followers provides zero evidence about your personal Charisma. It just says that people are hungry to see miracles.

There are also plenty of classical examples of prophets who were decidedly unpopular despite their miracle-working ability. Elijah can call down fire from heaven but he can't get Queen Jezebel off his back? He may have had negative Charisma.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

On Hallowed Ground (1996), page 13. "The main function of a priest is to proselytize, to draw others into the worship of the power. It doesn't matter if the flock comes in terror or adoration, as long as the people feed the god their beliefs.
...Those who don't (or can't) inspire sufficient emotion and belief are utter failures, and won't remain priests for long.
...Why do some priest fail to deliver the faithful? For some, it's just a lack of charisma."

But... that's a Planescape book. Isn't the whole point of Planescape the idea that the universe is a gigantic ideological war between factions (not just gods), and whichever ideologies win become reality? If you're not running that kind of universe--if you're not running a campaign such that persuading a sufficient number of people that death is final and there is no afterlife will actually shut down Revivify/Raise Dead/Contact Other Plane/etc.--why would you apply that motivation a la carte to priests?

 

[seebs]

I don't really see what this notion of faithfulness or resolution has to do with wisdom, which is about sound judgment (in ordinary language, and also the AD&D PHB p 11) or about "perception and insight" and also "intuition" (per the 5e SRD pp 76, 82).

If Pelor was being subtle in sending signs and portents, I could see that a character needs perception, insight and intuition to notice them. But in the classic stories of prophets and
miracle workers, the signs tend to be transmitted rather blatantly (eg via visions) rather than with subtlety.

The "wisdom" stat is also your resistance to attacks on your decisions, so it is being used for faithfulness or resolve.

 

[pemerton]

You know, in a real-life setting, one could argue that if you can work miracles, the fact that you're attracting followers provides zero evidence about your personal Charisma. It just says that people are hungry to see miracles.

There are also plenty of classical examples of prophets who were decidedly unpopular despite their miracle-working ability.

The same could be said about knights, though. Not all knights of the Round Table are popular - yet in AD&D they all have high CHA, and in 5e are at least encouraged to do so.

In my 4e game we have a ranger-cleric who, like most (but not all) 4e clerics is built on a WIS chassis, and it doesn't particularly bother me, but I can still see the OP's point. If I had to choose a canonical stat to represent a miracle worker and prophet I would opt for CHA (as has been done with paladins) rather than WIS (which I think is a better fit for hermits, monks and druids - who, oddly enough in AD&D, also needed CHA, but tend not to in more modern versions of the came).