D&D 5E Clerics and Wisdom

[pemerton]

Aren't you engaged in special pleading here?

I don't think so - but I'm probably not the best-placed person to judge!

As evidence for high Cha, you've given the fact that they attract followers and work miracles. In response to the observation that those things aren't evidence for high Charisma, and that many classical prophets were unpopular to boot, you observe that it's okay for the game to obey archetypes even if those archetypes don't exist in real life.

I don't think high CHA = popular. AD&D paladins have extremely high CHA - at least 17 - but are clearly not popular with evil high priests, despotic nobles, orc hordes etc.

High CHA does equate to some ability to command authority, generate a following, impress one's enemies with one's resolution, etc - think of Saladin gifting King Richard with a warhorse - and I think that is part of the miracle-worker archetype. St Bernard of Clairvaux, for instance, attracted followers beseeching miracles as he toured the south of France investigating the "heretics". St Francis, at least in the movie version (I'm thinking of Brother Sun, Sister Moon), also attracts followers in virtue of his divinely-inspired charisma.

Personally, I just don't see a very strong connection between this archetype and insight/perception/judgment - unless you are talking about metaphorical insight into the will of the divine - whereas I do see a fairly strong connection to force of personality.

If you equate prophets and miracle workers to hermits, oracles and the like then you will probably disagree with me. Personally I see the latter as different from the miracle worker trope, and I think WIS does suit them.

In D&D terms I would put traditional clerics and paladins in the first (CHA) basket, and would put druids, original OA shukenja and wu jen, invokers, monks and some "specialty priests" in the second (WIS) basket.

But the argument so far advanced in favor of Charisma being a primary stat for holy men is pretty weak.

As I've said, I'm distinguishing two categories of the "holy man" archetype: the prophet and miracle worker; and the oracle and hermit.

The best argument for it is Planescape-style "gods who need followers in order to have power, and clerics in order to gain followers," but in that case you're clearly in gamist territory with no real-world analogue whatsoever.

I guess that argument works for Planescape, but it's not one that moves me as I'm not remotely a Planescape fan, and prefer an approach whereby divinity shapes mortal fortunes rather than vice versa.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], I share your distaste for the Planescape take on divinity as subject-to-mortal-followers.

I don't really understand the dichotomy you're trying to draw between "miracle workers" and "hermits". It looks like a false dichotomy to me, but that might be because I'm so familiar with the Old Testament.

 

[Gadget]

For me the big disconnect has been the slow morph of wisdom = perception over time. I guess that wise old guru on the mountain top can tell a sparrow from a finch a mile off, in addition to understanding the meaning of life. Maybe that's why he's on the mountain top, a better vantage point to spot things from, you see .

 

[Azzy]

I don't really see what this notion of faithfulness or resolution has to do with wisdom, which is about sound judgment (in ordinary language, and also the AD&D PHB p 11) or about "perception and insight" and also "intuition" (per the 5e SRD pp 76, 82).

Like I said previously, the archetypal holy person is noted as being wise, insightful, enlightened, and imbued with the understanding of divine workings.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

For me the big disconnect has been the slow morph of wisdom = perception over time. I guess that wise old guru on the mountain top can tell a sparrow from a finch a mile off, in addition to understanding the meaning of life. Maybe that's why he's on the mountain top, a better vantage point to spot things from, you see .

Just a thought:

I don't see anything particularly wrong with making it a statless skill. Instead of "Roll Wisdom (Perception)" it could just be "roll Perception." It would be a large coincidence that MM creatures tend to have similar Perception scores and Wisdom saves, but not a game-breaking one.

Or, you could say that people with high Wisdom are self-disciplined and better at paying attention to their surroundings instead of daydreaming or subvocalizing about how much their feet hurt from marching.

 

[pemerton]

I don't really understand the dichotomy you're trying to draw between "miracle workers" and "hermits". It looks like a false dichotomy to me, but that might be because I'm so familiar with the Old Testament.

Like I said previously, the archetypal holy person is noted as being wise, insightful, enlightened, and imbued with the understanding of divine workings.

Gygax says, in his PHB, that the cleric broadly corresponds to the crusading orders of knighthood. As an archetype, and looking at the traditional cleric spell list, in my mind I expand that to cover various of the mediaeval saints (upthread I mentioned St Bernard, who wrote the order for the templars; and St Francis), the holy Anglo-Saxon kings, Joan of Arc, etc.

I don't think of these personages as having particular insight, guile or enlightenment (some may be, but that's not a general trait). But they are definitely invested with a divine charisma.
[MENTION=23716]Gadget[/MENTION] mentions gurus on mountaintops: for those sorts of characters I think WIS does make sense; but in D&D I don't think that these are traditional clerics, but rather druids, monks, etc.

I'm not sure it's a huge deal if others don't see these archetypes the same way - but that's why the OP resonated with me.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't really see what this notion of faithfulness or resolution has to do with wisdom, which is about sound judgment (in ordinary language, and also the AD&D PHB p 11) or about "perception and insight" and also "intuition" (per the 5e SRD pp 76, 82).

Presumably, if you are truly one of Pelor's faithful, then following Pelor's wishes is sound judgement, even when it flies in the face of what would otherwise be better options. If Pelor tells you to go through the Swamp of Horrible Doom rather than walking the Safe Road, then presumably he has a reason for it even though you may not know it. Having the faith and good judgement to follow Pelor's wishes is Wisdom.

If Pelor was being subtle in sending signs and portents, I could see that a character needs perception, insight and intuition to notice them. But in the classic stories of prophets and miracle workers, the signs tend to be transmitted rather blatantly (eg via visions) rather than with subtlety.

Sure, but in the stories the divine didn't draw up a hundred page treatise explaining exactly how to go about things. It was more like "I want you to do this". Interpreting how to go about it in a way that conforms to the divine's wishes is wisdom. If Pelor sends you a vision telling you to deal with the nearby town of undead, rushing off and killing everything that moves may not be the ideal solution. Perhaps the villagers are in fact cursed, and if you approach in a more restrained manner you can figure it out and free the villagers from the curse. Which, again, requires wisdom.

 

[pemerton]

Presumably, if you are truly one of Pelor's faithful, then following Pelor's wishes is sound judgement, even when it flies in the face of what would otherwise be better options. If Pelor tells you to go through the Swamp of Horrible Doom rather than walking the Safe Road, then presumably he has a reason for it even though you may not know it. Having the faith and good judgement to follow Pelor's wishes is Wisdom.

Now this is sounding like loyalty. Why wouldn't a 10 WIS character who knows what Pelor wants do the right thing by Pelor?

If Pelor sends you a vision telling you to deal with the nearby town of undead, rushing off and killing everything that moves may not be the ideal solution. Perhaps the villagers are in fact cursed, and if you approach in a more restrained manner you can figure it out and free the villagers from the curse. Which, again, requires wisdom.

And while this is sounding more like wisdom, it's not a trait that I particularly associate with Knights Templar, Joan of Arc, St Francis etc.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Now this is sounding like loyalty. Why wouldn't a 10 WIS character who knows what Pelor wants do the right thing by Pelor?

Because their faith is lacking. They might want to do right by Pelor, but their fear of the SoHD could outweigh their trust in Pelor.

And while this is sounding more like wisdom, it's not a trait that I particularly associate with Knights Templar, Joan of Arc, St Francis etc.

St Francis most certainly displayed wisdom. Wisdom is associated with willpower, and it undoubtedly took great willpower to renounce his wealthy family and accept a life of humble poverty. Wisdom is associated with empathy* (Insight) and he also displayed this, tending to lepers.

There are plenty of examples of wisdom in holy figures. Both Buddha's and Jesus' teachings contain profound wisdom, for example.

*Note that while a high Charisma character might appear to display empathy, without wisdom he is simply a charismatic sociopath, understanding the buttons to press in order to get the reaction he wants, but lacking the capacity for actually experiencing the emotions of others.

 

[pemerton]

It seems that some posters in this thread conceive of CHA (in 5e, "force of personality"; in Gygax's PHB, "physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism") differently from me.

I don't think of high CHA primarily in terms of glibness. An important element in many instances of powerful or magnetic personalities is sincerity, empathy and an ability to convey (what are taken by the audience to be) deep truths.

I'm sure that one could run a Lareth the Beautiful type character as having high CHA yet being a sociopath, but that's not how I would describe a LG character with high CHA, even if the character's WIS was low. High WIS isn't a necessary condition for being sincere, and persuading others by dint of that sincerity.