D&D 4E Who's still playing 4E

Balesir

Adventurer
I like that you used this specific example, because that is used a lot when I say I don't like Fail Forward.

I don't see this specific example as "failing forward", because if the player's objective was to reach that city, it is for some reason, usually bound to the plot (find a mcguffin, consult a sage, get a ship, etc). By making the failure equal to them NOT reaching the city, you basically failed the adventure. The fact that you used the hook to start a new adventure (getting lost into the goblin-spider forest) don't mean they continued with the adventure they wanted.
As you said yourself, if the characters must reach the city, then you don't make that part of the stakes. In several game styles, however (including sandbox and player-initiated story improvisation) getting to the city may be just one possible path. In these cases, fail forward is about making sure that the party are always on a path that leads somewhere interseting - even if it's not where they originally wanted to get to...

On the other hand, making the failure being something that just expend extra resources (time, consumables, surges, etc), then the check is no longer interesting. Is as interesting as rolling to avoid being smashed by the giant boulder: You want success, but had no control on why you have to make the roll in the first place.
The "no control" element is why I try to make skill challenges all about the players' plan, these days - but other than that isn't this pretty much what combat is often about? The PCs are likely to win (because a high real risk of death leads to very short campaigns, just because of probability multiplication), but it's really about how much damage they take in doing so. I would agree that it is preferable to introduce some more interesting stakes where possible - but "an encounter with some mercenaries hired to delay them" seems pretty much to fit the "something that just expends extra resources (time, consumables, surges, etc)" mould.

If the concept works for you, congratulations. I hope you make good use of it, and that it make great games on your table. It just never "clicked" on me as something good, but on the other hand, I also don't like Call of Duty and some people do. Different people, different types of fun, I guess.
Likewise, if you don't want to use it I'm not going to make you, but I think you're missing out on a useful tool.
 

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Here's where I think I should point out the nature of the DM knowing their players. In general, I tend to do four things:
I base DCs on what I know my players are capable of achieving. If the PCs have low levels of say physical skills, I either make it clear that I expect them to somehow be able to achieve relatively difficult DCs or I set the DCs based on those skills when it is obvious a skill challenge requires it.
I don't think this is 'wrong', far from it in fact, but its an area that deserves a little more consideration. If you constantly just cater to what the players and their PCs are good at and comfortable with, you're either creating a kind of 'cake walk' (the DCs may all be at the recommended levels, and the encounters perfectly difficult, IN THEORY, but in practice easy your group). The other possibility is that you create a self-reinforcing optimization spiral where the players see only really value in investing in what they use most, and the DM responds by providing more, and more difficult, challenges in just that area.

The alternative is to provide a wide spectrum of challenges. Let the players decide which ones they want to engage with, and which they don't. Let them decide which types to optimize for, and which not to. Just keep giving them all these different choices. This reduces optimization and can keep the game more fresh, but it could also just make players board or disinterested when they're asked to do something that they don't care about.

Its a different way of saying to know your players, in the end. The thing is, I don't think 4e is in any sense unique here. SCs just present situations. You'd have had to know these things about your PCs just as much back in say 2e. In fact I think 1e's OA was probably the ultimate place where this was true, as many skills were 'trained only' and you really didn't get much chance to add more training. Plus a lot of them were kinda weird stuff like 'flower arranging' that had specific value in the context of the milieu, but weren't inherently all that interesting in a game sense.

I tend to throw in really easy DCs or even auto-successes into my skill challenges - just because a party is high level, they can still find a 10' cliff to climb or an easy lock to pick - it just isn't the focus of the challenge. It helps the PCs understand how far they have come and also reduces the sense of treadmill scaling challenges. A routine poison needle trap that almost killed the Rogue at low level that makes a return in Paragon allowing the
Maybe those things should just be 'ordinary activities' (IE you don't make checks for even level 1 PCs running down corridors, level 20 PCs probably should just swarm up 30' natural cliffs without even needing a check). Not that it is a big deal either way, really.

I try to make sure that when I design a skill challenge for my group that each PC has something interesting to do. And if the skill challenge doesn't provide that, then I'll redesign it. That's a huge problem with skill challenges in mods as they basically tend to assume that a party with all basic skills is there.
Its certainly nice when this is the case. OTOH SCs TEND to go reasonably quickly (faster than combat) so I'm not so worried about spotlighting a PC in one, though I certainly try to make the more in-depth SCs have parts for all, as you say. Truthfully though, with 17 skills, and say 7 of them active in any given SC, it should be sufficient for an SC designer to have 1-2 physical, 1-2 knowledge, and 1-2 activity skills present in each challenge, as that tends to pretty well guarantee everyone has something they can try at least a couple times. Also group checks (easy DC usually), AA, and possibly additional alt skill use providing things like 'unlocking' and such should allow filling in where the spread is weak.

Finally, I think about how the party might fail forward. So as an example, to use the rapids as an example. If the party isn't doing well, maybe a combo of perception+dungeoneering sees a tunnel to crash into rather than be dragged underwater. And that tunnel might have some interesting bits of information as a consequence of 'failing' to get to the destination on time. Or they get dragged underwater and miss out on that bit of info, but instead manage to save themselves by finding some ancient boat wreck, with a skeleton who has a sigil ring on its hand. Which when they get to the city, they can find out belonged to some minor noble house. Which could then lead to the knowledge that the heir was murdered by a usurper many years ago and get the PCs involved in some political intrigue. Etc...

Yeah, there's many possibilities there. Honestly though, I'm really in the school that says "its no different from combat, let the PCs put it all on the line" and not worry TOO much about the forward part. I mean the trick is really to avoid strict bottlenecks, and this goes along with letting the players choose. They choose the river, or they could try to approach the hermit druid and see if he can help them. Or invent a ritual to call down the giant eagles, or etc.
 

As you said yourself, if the characters must reach the city, then you don't make that part of the stakes. In several game styles, however (including sandbox and player-initiated story improvisation) getting to the city may be just one possible path. In these cases, fail forward is about making sure that the party are always on a path that leads somewhere interseting - even if it's not where they originally wanted to get to...

A good example might be a journey scenario, where instead of it being a simple "do we get there or not" the issue at hand could be something like "Do we get our buddy that got bit by the death adder to the city for treatment before he dies?" or something like that. Success and failure will result in the reaching of the city, and thus the continuance of the plot, but it could be sans one character (or the 5000gp required to res him at the very least).
 

pemerton

Legend
Its a different way of saying to know your players, in the end. The thing is, I don't think 4e is in any sense unique here. SCs just present situations. You'd have had to know these things about your PCs just as much back in say 2e. In fact I think 1e's OA was probably the ultimate place where this was true, as many skills were 'trained only' and you really didn't get much chance to add more training. Plus a lot of them were kinda weird stuff like 'flower arranging' that had specific value in the context of the milieu, but weren't inherently all that interesting in a game sense.
Hey, don't knock those samurai with their poetry, tea ceremony and flower arranging!

Now you're making me want to include a poetry competition in my next Burning Wheel session!
 

MwaO

Adventurer
I don't think this is 'wrong', far from it in fact, but its an area that deserves a little more consideration. If you constantly just cater to what the players and their PCs are good at and comfortable with, you're either creating a kind of 'cake walk' (the DCs may all be at the recommended levels, and the encounters perfectly difficult, IN THEORY, but in practice easy your group). The other possibility is that you create a self-reinforcing optimization spiral where the players see only really value in investing in what they use most, and the DM responds by providing more, and more difficult, challenges in just that area.

That's the 'or make it clear that I expect a wide variety of skills at specific DCs part' - in other words, if there aren't any Str-based PCs, either I make clear that I expect that someone can occasionally pass a hard Athletics DC check or I set a hard DC based on the best Athletics value. I'm not going to put an actual hard Athletics DC into a skill challenge otherwise unless there isn't a lot of choice about it.

NETH4-1 has a couple of my skill challenge theories in it, which unfortunately for the combat skill challenges, got really popular - ways for auto-success with big cost, other ways to get successes, has a bite that only shows up if ignored, but pays off for either kind of ignoring it or eliminating it quickly.

Maybe those things should just be 'ordinary activities' (IE you don't make checks for even level 1 PCs running down corridors, level 20 PCs probably should just swarm up 30' natural cliffs without even needing a check). Not that it is a big deal either way, really.

It can be when there was a big failure say 10 levels ago due to X, then the person who failed can just blow past X. Especially if I somehow subtly hint at the previous failure so the player involved can realize what just happened.

Yeah, there's many possibilities there. Honestly though, I'm really in the school that says "its no different from combat, let the PCs put it all on the line" and not worry TOO much about the forward part. I mean the trick is really to avoid strict bottlenecks, and this goes along with letting the players choose. They choose the river, or they could try to approach the hermit druid and see if he can help them. Or invent a ritual to call down the giant eagles, or etc.

The big advantage about the forward part is that the players stop viewing failure so antagonistically. Yes, they didn't get down the rapids in time, and boy, there are consequences for that, but at the same time, they got something shiny that they might be able to turn into a positive with a little luck.
 

Hey, don't knock those samurai with their poetry, tea ceremony and flower arranging!

Now you're making me want to include a poetry competition in my next Burning Wheel session!

The concept was great of course, but (typically for TSR products of that era) OA provided no real presentation to support it, no additional rules infrastructure to make it actually work well in the context of play, etc. In fact IMHO TSR's OA was largely a failure because of these issues. There's an LR thread on OA over on rpg.net which is worth a read. Lots of interesting comments on 1e-era system and presentation failings. It was an early attempt to break out of the mold of classic D&D, but TSR seems to have lacked both the editorial chops and innovative thinking in game design to pull it off.
 

That's the 'or make it clear that I expect a wide variety of skills at specific DCs part' - in other words, if there aren't any Str-based PCs, either I make clear that I expect that someone can occasionally pass a hard Athletics DC check or I set a hard DC based on the best Athletics value. I'm not going to put an actual hard Athletics DC into a skill challenge otherwise unless there isn't a lot of choice about it.

NETH4-1 has a couple of my skill challenge theories in it, which unfortunately for the combat skill challenges, got really popular - ways for auto-success with big cost, other ways to get successes, has a bite that only shows up if ignored, but pays off for either kind of ignoring it or eliminating it quickly.
Yeah, I haven't really read the LFR adventures much, I just wasn't ever much of a packaged adventure guy. I've generally held that, for example, expenditure of a daily power is roughly worth an auto-success (you may have to unlock its use with a skill check first, which is a good way to add in another skill use). An encounter power use should roughly unlock some sort of interesting skill check, or provide the narrative reasoning for using an advantage, but since it isn't really a resource expenditure per-se (except temporarily, and SCs have a lot less checks than combat, so its really very temporary) you can't just say "it grants a bonus". At-wills GENERALLY don't do much, though they can substitute for tools or other resources and provide narrative justifications too. Rituals can often provide a similar benefit, and upping the stakes with expenditure of a surge or AP can provide something similar to an advantage as well. These are all of course pretty situation-dependent.


It can be when there was a big failure say 10 levels ago due to X, then the person who failed can just blow past X. Especially if I somehow subtly hint at the previous failure so the player involved can realize what just happened.
Sure, I'm well aware of the technique and use it also. I'm just saying, it usually doesn't need to involve checks, unless its "something that is now easy but still a bit dangerous" (IE 5 levels below you). Once stuff is more than 5 levels beneath you, then basically it is just set dressing and I don't consider it part of the challenge structure anymore. Even 1 or 2 'gimme' checks plays a pretty drastic havoc on the actual difficulty of SCs (dig up the original writeup here of the Obsidian system where the author did the math on the SC system, its pretty wonky).

The big advantage about the forward part is that the players stop viewing failure so antagonistically. Yes, they didn't get down the rapids in time, and boy, there are consequences for that, but at the same time, they got something shiny that they might be able to turn into a positive with a little luck.

I'm not opposed to it of course, and this is all true. I just found that the issue became considerably less of a problem when SCs are viewed in a 'hard light' as if they are on par with combat encounters in terms of consequences. You can of course use both approaches in the same game. Its also quite possible to have 'soft' combat encounters where failing forward happens too, though its not really a very common practice (it probably should be done more).
 


I'll see if I can find it - as you might have seen me post before, OA was a very formative product for me as a GM.

I figured you might be interested ;). Actually rpg.net seems to be the best place for 4e discussion in general these days. Its still a pretty active topic there. More so than here (though ENWorld certainly manages to talk about 4e a decent amount). There are some fairly good posters as well, and I think the modding is pretty good.
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
I can't remember if I've posted in this thread before or not, and it's not old enough to be a necro, especially considering the lack of posts with this tag these days.

So yeah, I'm still playing 4e. I just finished a 1-10 viking-themed game, have restarted another game that I'm co-dming with my wife (we run PCs in each other's game), which also has a higher-level counterpart on the cusp of Paragon that I am a player in. I've also got another game that's on hold, which is a precursor to another game that I haven't started.

I have no intent to switch editions at this point. I just don't like what I've read of 5e, in particular the return of casters having all the cool toys, but other issues as well. I also have no time to learn another new system at this stage of my life. One of the guys in the group really wants to try it but so far has not mustered the time to put together a game, so it remains untested.
 

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