D&D 5E As a DM, do I kill the entire party at the end? Im torn?

[jaffab]

Hi all,

I am between a rock and a hard place in my current campaign. The party playing my adventure missed a whale sized clue, which means that when they face the 'big bad' at the end, if I play it by the campaign story, they cant win - they all die in the end.

I have played the campaign (home brew) 4 other times before and in each time, the PCs have spotted the clue have got what is needed and have won. But this group missed it (even when I slapped 2 of them in the face with the clue again to try and get them back on track), and have headed off to do the battle with the big bad.

In my story, the big bad has found a way to turn themselves into a semi undead, with their heart removed and stored somewhere. All the clues (diary pages they have found during the quest) says that unless the heart is destroyed, the big bad is effectively immortal. Think of it as the Horcrux in Harry Potter world.

There was a big clue about where the heart was, but they decided to ignore this clue, and off they went to do battle.

So, do I kill them all, or somehow change the rules of my campaign so that they can kill the bad, even though the horcrux (heart) beats on in a box somewhere?

How would you feel as a player if after 12+ weeks of campaign, you ALL lost against the big bad? In a way, I feel they deserve to all die for being so stupid, but at the same time, I dont want to upet the (RL) group.

 

[Cody C. Lewis]

I vote kill them.

Player choices should always matter. For better or for worse.



Edit: I feel as though I should clarify that that was tongue and cheek. I still feel player choices should always matter, but that doesn't mean you have to just "kill them all". What I meant was you don't have to change your game to accommodate your players IF their actions are reckless. Visual clues during combat to describe how little damage they are doing to the BBEG should they engage him, will hopefully let them know they are outclassed, and that they need to retreat and restrategize.

 

[delericho]

I am between a rock and a hard place in my current campaign. The party playing my adventure missed a whale sized clue...

Before dealing with your specific question, there's a lesson to learn from this: you shouldn't ever assume your players will pick up on one vital clue, no matter how big and obvious you make it!

Ideally, for every conclusion you want your players to draw you should have at least three clues - that way they can miss one, misinterpret the second, and finally "get it" with the third!

In my story, the big bad has found a way to turn themselves into a semi undead, with their heart removed and stored somewhere. All the clues (diary pages they have found during the quest) says that unless the heart is destroyed, the big bad is effectively immortal. Think of it as the Horcrux in Harry Potter world.

There was a big clue about where the heart was, but they decided to ignore this clue, and off they went to do battle.

Are you playing the game of thrones: you win or you die?

So, do I kill them all, or somehow change the rules of my campaign so that they can kill the bad, even though the horcrux (heart) beats on in a box somewhere?

Neither, at least not right away. When the PCs engage the BBEG in combat, it should hopefully be pretty clear pretty quickly that they're over-matched and can't win. At which point, they should hopefully retreat and come up with a new plan.

If they don't, and keep battling away at a hopeless situation then you can enforce the TPK.

But "you can't win" doesn't (or shouldn't) always mean "you're all going to DIE!"

 

[KahlessNestor]

Don't kill them. Defeat them, let yhe Big Bad boast over them about how unworthy they are, maybe boast about how he made himself immortal and can never be defeated. Then let them wallow in their own gits as he leaves.

After they heal up, now maybe they'll get the clu by four and get the heart. Then they havento find the big bad again and finally defeat him.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[Ganymede81]

Let them fight and "kill" the big bad, but just bring him back a day later with vengeance on his mind.

That'll get the group wondering why he did not stay dead.

 

[jaffab]

Neither, at least not right away. When the PCs engage the BBEG in combat, it should hopefully be pretty clear pretty quickly that they're over-matched and can't win. At which point, they should hopefully retreat and come up with a new plan.

I cant do this, to get to the big bad, they have already passed through a big war going on between goblins, orcs and men (where they controlled the troops of the men for a while until one of the party had search the various rooms of the keeps looking for the secret door which leads to the big bad), and then they are now making their way through a massive underground maze to get to the big bad and then up, up up a tower. To head away would mean back tracking all of that, including going back into the war which itself is unwinable.

I quite like the idea of the defeat option, take but one of them down to 0HP, then the big bad gets out of there with cutting remarks which indicates that they have failed, and starts on their big bad plan for the end of the world.

 

[Oofta]

Rule #1of DMng: Never assume people are going to play according to you script.
Rule #2: See rule #1.
At this point you have to look at this as interactive story telling. Is it fun and/or memorable for the party to die? If it's not (you know your group, not me) then change the story.
There are numerous ways of fixing this from changing the BBEG to having someone tell them, to defeat but do not kill (have BBEG monologue his weakness at some point ) etc.
Do what's fun but remember that for some people playing with no risk is no fun.
And always remember DM rule #1.

 

[delericho]

I cant do this, to get to the big bad, they have already passed through a big war going on between goblins, orcs and men (where they controlled the troops of the men for a while until one of the party had search the various rooms of the keeps looking for the secret door which leads to the big bad), and then they are now making their way through a massive underground maze to get to the big bad and then up, up up a tower. To head away would mean back tracking all of that, including going back into the war which itself is unwinable.

Oh well, I guess you'll have to kill them then.

But next time, do as [MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION] says: never assume people are going to play according to your script. Better still don't even have a script.

 

[jaffab]

One thought that comes to mind based on what others have said, is that in the main 'town' of the story (where the PCs have spent a lot of time), there is an Inn with a barkeep who is an old adventurer. they spent a lot of the time in the Inn planning. I could bring the Inn Keep back.... he had been listening to what the party had been discussing, after they set off for the Big bad, he put 2 and 2 together, search the BBEG houe, found the clues that the party had missed, retrieved the heat, followed them up the tower and appears at the top of the tower at the moment of defeat with the heart and stabs it (before dieing).

Seems a bit of a cheat - but it will be too much of a back track for the PCs to return back to town, and I cant think of a get out 'weakness' that the BBEG could have after saying so many times, the heart has to die to kill the big bad. Not unless anybody can think of a spell that somebody could use to teleport the heart to the party that I could leave lying around.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

If you're feeling is that your players would not handle a fight they can't win, that ends in their characters' deaths, then you're probably right. There are few things more of a bummer than a combat in D&D with a predetermined, no-win outcome.

There's a wonderful thing in one of the edition's DMGs about Pass/Fail decision points...pretty much, whether the PCs succeed or fail, the adventure goes on...just in different directions; it never comes to a dead end based on a single success or failure. I find thinking that way tends to help me out a great deal in adventure design.

I know you said that retreat isn't an option, based on the situation, but you might also want to plan how the adventure would unfold if they do make a run for it. PCs rarely do, in my experience, but they also have a way of surprising the DM, too.