D&D 5E As a DM, do I kill the entire party at the end? Im torn?

[Sunseeker]

As [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] mentions right off the bat, relying on one clue is great for storytelling, but not so great for a game.

Honestly, is it possible they could defeat the bad guy? IE: knock him to 0 HP and see his spirit vanish, thinking him defeated, only to have his return later on? That's much the same way Voldemort's Horcruxes worked, which were conceptually similar to how a lich's phylactery works in most D&D system: the body reforms after X amount of time until the phylactery is destroyed.

Personally, I have "the same clue" in several different locations around my game, and often multiples of objects that would provide them with the same information. There's no real point in creating something awesome that you want the players to find but can't just give them and only having one chance encounter of them finding it.

Would I kill your party? I don't know. If they can't reasonably defeat the BBEG, yes. If they can, but the BBEG just can't DIE unless they destroy the heart, then no I would not.

 

[Shasarak]

You didn't find the horcrux, you didn't destroy the horcrux, you can't beat voldemort. Hope you have a Plan B.

-Brad

I wish you would have at least told us about the horcrux before you killed us all off with your unbeatable monster.

It is only my character that is the mind reader.

 

[Bawylie]

I wish you would have at least told us about the horcrux before you killed us all off with your unbeatable monster.

It is only my character that is the mind reader.

Yes, well, that's where adequate telegraphing comes into play. You'll have a demonstration of the villain's unkillability (or have rumor of it at least). You'll have legends of a prior unkillable who had a secret weakness hidden away. You'll have a some clue that your BBEG has done something similar. Etc.

So yeah, you'll have enough information to start a heart seeker quest. If you don't... That'll be on you.

Keeping it a secret would be on me.


-Brad

 

[Maxperson]

It then follows that maybe you should try to work in an extra chance for them to get the clue, especially if they missed it not because of any meaningful choice they made, but out of simple dumb luck.

He did. You can only hit them in the face with it so many times before figuring it out becomes as dissatisfying as a fight you can't win.

But this group missed it (even when I slapped 2 of them in the face with the clue again to try and get them back on track), and have headed off to do the battle with the big bad.

I think perhaps a defeat and a carting off to the mines to work hard labor, digging for what the big bad needs for his plans is in order. Or something like that anyway. They can realize that he can't be killed normally and go looking for the clue later, after the escape.

 

[Ancalagon]

You know... a BBEG that is completely invulnerable (and not just merely unkillable) may be very cavaliere about capturing PCs instead of killing them. I mean they can't hurt him right?

"well I guess I could draw my sword of ultimate death here, or cast meteor swarm at you 5 times, but I'm just going to beat you into submission with this stick. Oh don't shout while casing cone of cold will you, you're going to give yourself a hoarse voice!"

Then the PCs can escape etc etc.

However, if you do decide to kill them, remember this: Kill the PCs. Do *not* kill the players. Very illegal.

 

[Psikerlord#]

You need to respect player actions. They missed the clue - you need to respect that. You chose that ti was unwinnable and un-retreatable - you don't need to respect that.

Let them fight. Let them realize that they can't kill him. Put in place secondary objectives that they can accomplish when getting brutalized, perhaps ones that will turn the war around or at least give respite. Give them an opportunity to retreat when they feel like they have accomplished enough, but don't make it easy. Let some die if they aren't smart and lucky, let the dice fall where they will. Encourage someone to be a martyr to let the rest of the party escape. "You shall not pass!" makes a great gaming story. And give them another 12 week of trying to dig out of this bad position, war lost, on the run trying to stop the big bad from steamrolling the forces of good, raising guerilla forces to take the land back.

(And if someone is willing to play the martyr card to save the rest, let them bring in a new character with a major plot bennie. Gotta reward that if you want to see it again.)

Fail forward, it could be an even more interesting second half.

I had a martyr situation as a player with my level 17 PC in 4e a few years back. It is one of my favourite gaming moments of all time! Dwarf paladin of clanggadin. He was good fun to play, but always wanted to die in battle. Ah fond memories. I highly recommend this option to the OP if it comes to it.

 

[Quickleaf]

Hi all,

I am between a rock and a hard place in my current campaign. The party playing my adventure missed a whale sized clue, which means that when they face the 'big bad' at the end, if I play it by the campaign story, they cant win - they all die in the end.

I have played the campaign (home brew) 4 other times before and in each time, the PCs have spotted the clue have got what is needed and have won. But this group missed it (even when I slapped 2 of them in the face with the clue again to try and get them back on track), and have headed off to do the battle with the big bad.

In my story, the big bad has found a way to turn themselves into a semi undead, with their heart removed and stored somewhere. All the clues (diary pages they have found during the quest) says that unless the heart is destroyed, the big bad is effectively immortal. Think of it as the Horcrux in Harry Potter world.

There was a big clue about where the heart was, but they decided to ignore this clue, and off they went to do battle.

So, do I kill them all, or somehow change the rules of my campaign so that they can kill the bad, even though the horcrux (heart) beats on in a box somewhere?

How would you feel as a player if after 12+ weeks of campaign, you ALL lost against the big bad? In a way, I feel they deserve to all die for being so stupid, but at the same time, I dont want to upet the (RL) group.

Whoa. Well, you can leave out the judgment for starters.

I'm assuming, especially since you've run this campaign before, that you're all read up on The Three Clue Rule, and that this particular group of players just wasn't as astute or skilled as your former groups, and they genuinely missed the clue like you said. Rather than, say, you as DM not telegraphing sufficiently with multiple clue vectors.

I like what [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] said (in spoiler below), especially the bit about there actually being 2 goals for the PCs: (1) Defeat the BBEG, and (2) Win the war. You don't have to tie these together.

It sounds like you're saying the BBEG can't be killed, so you're anticipating the players losing both (1) and (2). However, let me present some other possibilities:

• Win 1, Lose 2: The BBEG doesn't die, but the PCs use magic or creative thinking to banish, incapacitate, or bind him. They sorta win #1, or at least reach a tie. However, the war is lost around them. Now, with the BBEG in custody or temporarily out of the picture, they have to figure out what to do next.
• Win 1, Win 2: The PCs sorta win #1 as above, and the war is also won through their efforts. With the BBEG's power base quashed, what will they do with him (if captured)? Or how will they prepare for his inevitable revenge (if banished/petrified) when he returns?
• Lose 1, Lose 2: Worse cast scenario, this probably looks like the TPK you're imagining.
• Lose 1, Win 2: The PCs can't defeat the BBEG, either dying heroically sacrificing themselves, or calling a grueling retreat after heavy losses thanks to protection from their allied forces. The BBEG has lost his power base and is sure to seek vigorous reprisals against the PCs and their allies using everything at his disposal.

[SBLOCK=Blue's post]

You need to respect player actions. They missed the clue - you need to respect that. You chose that ti was unwinnable and un-retreatable - you don't need to respect that.

Let them fight. Let them realize that they can't kill him. Put in place secondary objectives that they can accomplish when getting brutalized, perhaps ones that will turn the war around or at least give respite. Give them an opportunity to retreat when they feel like they have accomplished enough, but don't make it easy. Let some die if they aren't smart and lucky, let the dice fall where they will. Encourage someone to be a martyr to let the rest of the party escape. "You shall not pass!" makes a great gaming story. And give them another 12 week of trying to dig out of this bad position, war lost, on the run trying to stop the big bad from steamrolling the forces of good, raising guerilla forces to take the land back.

(And if someone is willing to play the martyr card to save the rest, let them bring in a new character with a major plot bennie. Gotta reward that if you want to see it again.)

Fail forward, it could be an even more interesting second half.

[/SBLOCK]

 

[Unwise]

I take back my earlier soft comment about letting them flee easily enough and regroup and then go after the macguffin. Let them die. In the end it makes for a far more memorable game and end of a campaign. Most stories end with the heroes saving the day, you will remember the game where you fell over at the last hurdle long after you have forgotten the victories.

You can run another game where a new group of heroes find out about the macguffin and try to save the now devestated kingdom. You could even have them raise one of the PCs from the dead, or at least, speak with the dead, in order to find out what the hell went wrong. In this way, you could have the players play through piecing the parts they missed together, then giving the quest to succeed where they failed to the new generation of heroes.

 

[Sezarious]

So, a question. Mechanically, in what way is he invincible. Has he literally got "Immunity, all damage"? If so, even if the players go up to fight him, you will describe their hits as appearing to just pass through him, leaving him unharmed. As for the heart, well, I wouldn't make it as simple as you intend...

A clue though, this time, something staring the players in the face might be better. The 'secret room', which should be guarded by something nasty by the way, should contain maybe the grimore that he used to learn about his ritual from. It should be open with big pictures that show a lich like creature who is immune to all the weapons that attack it, then a picture of the heart locked away.

On reading the book, the PCs now find out that the BBEG is invincible, the grimore could even state something along the lines of, "The heart must NOT be destroyed and MUST remain on the same plane of existance in order for the magic to function. This tells the players that the heart could be ANYWHERE on the same plane... Uh-oh.

If they still try and fight him, and they keep pushing and pushing, have him start to kill characters, one by one, just as per his powers, whatever they are. Kill the PC's slowly and they'll get the message. If they don't start to leave after the first two drop to zero, have the BBEG cast telekinesis on one of the bodies and move it away from them, behind him "That is MY property now!"

The thing is, it's sometimes REALLY hard to hurt or kill PCs for some DMs. The truth for most DMs is we want to be good at what we do, create a story and a campaign that lights up the players eyes and has them ranting about the excitement of it. The first time I killed a PC, was the most exciting session we had all had. He was our party wizard. He and the party were up against an adult red dragon that was tactically using it's ability to fly to its advantage. It stayed 60ft up as it reigned fire upon the party below. The best offensive spell the wizard had memorised at the time was blight, range 30ft, but he also had misty step.... He used misty step (bonus action) to teleport 30ft up into the air, followed by his blight spell, dealing massive damage before falling down to the ground, taking fall damage. Still JUST alive after his fall, he looked up only to find the red dragon descend upon him in an arrogant rage. The creature was foolish in doing so. It brutally opened up the party wizard, tearing him in two in a spray of gore, but was now on the ground as a result. The angry party screaming out their "NOOOO's" as they all charged the creature, NOVA striking with everything they had, killing it and beheading it with roars of righteous fury.

My only point to all i've just mentioned is that PC death in D&D can be amazing. Sometimes it's scary to kill your PCs, but in a lot of ways, if they're reasonable people, they'll respect tou for it. Give them one more big glaring clue though. Then if they want to find out where the heart is, maybe they find out from some prisoners in the dungeon or the BBEG's diary. Maybe they find out that he has a teleportation mirror in his study, which might be located in the room above him (so it's well guarded obviously) BUUUT, little does he know, but the players might get clues that there might be other ways up to that room above him... Servants stairwells, unused for centuries. They break into his study, use the teleportation mirror, destroy the heart, destroy the BBEG and everyone feels happy. If a PC dies on the way, well, awesome. If all of them die, their deaths won't have been in vain as ling as they destroyed that heart. The army could then rock up and kill him later without a hassle, making a defeat like that kind of bitter-sweet.

 

[jaffab]

All, so people have talked about the clues and were they obvious enough..... so.....

1) The BBEG is the first NPC they meet, pretending to be all nice and stuff (even gifting them equipment) - they meet them in the BBEGs house
2) After some adventuring off on side quests, they discover the BBEG house on fire, and a burnt corpse in the BBEGs house - all players say how sad that the BBEG is dead - not knowing at this stage its the BBEG. There is another house nearbye with the 'town master' also dead.
3) After some more side questing , the BBEG makes an appearance, and 'reveals' themselves to be the nice person they met before, all players are shocked. They battle, the BBEG escapes
4) A story quest which they finding clues which they understand means they need to find and destroy the BBEGs heart to destroy the BBEG
5) More side quests, then back into town where the fires have been put out but the corpses are still in the houses (the maps we use clearly show the corpses). One of the party says "that's the dead town master, so who is that" and one of the PCs actually said "oh that's the person we first met, who now appears to be the big boss"

At this point, all other groups have gone "hang on", investigated the corpse, search the BBEGs house, found the body is the wrong sex, and find more clues (to the heart). But not this group.... so we continue

5) More side quests
6) So I introduce a 'funeral' (slap them in the face clue) - the town inn keeper drags the dead townmaster to the town cemetery, the PCs watch, and the inn keep asks them to lend a hand with the 'other body'. They drag it around town, saying (again) how its the body of the big boss. One of them suggests looking at the BBEG house, but the others say no, not worth it. I try to push them into searching the house, but they go shopping instead (sigh)

7) When I start to panic about missing the big clue, when they next return to town, I make the inn keeper try and get them to reason who the 2nd body was - they agree (again) it was the body of the big bad, but were actually more interested in why the town master died. After 10 minutes of conversation options, they head off the keep (and the goblin/orc war) which leads us now to the conflict with the BBEG

So my current options and thinking based on others suggestions are:

1) Kill them (die die die). They deserve it. They are stupid and only started making notes 25% of the way into the campaign
2) Use the Inn Keeper (who they have befriended and spent a lot of time with) to find the heart for them and destroy it (dieing in the process)
3) Provide a teleport mirror/portal at the base of the castle which will take them to the heart - if they ignore it, then back to #1
4) Put the heart in the basement of the castle. Sort of tempted by this, BUT it is letting them off. they deserve to die, but I don't want to upset anybody in RL
5) Kill them all down to the last PC (who can revive 1 or 2 PCs before the others fail the save throws) - with the speech of how they have failed, then goes off to destroy the world.
6) Playing it out, and see if they come up with something creative (how would harry kill voldamort when the horcruxes are still all good?). I imagine it would end in option #1 or #5

What I have ruled out is the suggestions of:
1) The big bad enslaves them - The story needs to end! They die, or the BB dies. An enslavement is a fluffy ending with no real ending
2) The big bad appears dead, and comes back later. Same reason as #1. Even if I bring the BBE in a new campaign,
3) They can escape and come back later. Again, the story needs to end. So same reason

At the moment, I am torn between options 2 (inn keeper), 3 (teleport), 5 (kill all but one) and 6.