Constitution based class

[TheLoneRanger1979]

Home brews seams like a good place to post this, but if misplaced, please place it accordingly

Anyways, reading the topic about what new class we would like to see, i noticed a comment about a possible new "fighter" or "non caster" class and thought to myself, how there really isn't a CON based class in 5E (except for the barbarian maybe, and even that one is arguably as much or more STR based). So i decided to try and come up with a class that relies on CON the most and this is what i came up with:

Class name <insert convenient>
Role: support
key mechanics: exertion
hit die (3d4 or 2d6 per level, undecided yet, may require level adjustments)
hit points: 3d4 (2d6)+CON mod
skills at lvl1: pick any 4 (may be adjusted)
armor proficiency: any (or light and medium) subject for debate
weapon proficiency: simple and martial

Exertion: when the character performs any skill check or damage roll, he/she may chose to expend one hit die and add the constitution modifier to it. The result is added to the skill check roll or damage roll. This can be performed as much times a day (not sure about encounter) as the character has hit dice in reserve.

So what do you guys think? Can a class that uses its hit dice to fuel skill use instead of heal itself, or at least partially so, work? Is it OP? Is it a dog? Should the class be provided with a feature that allows it at least some kind of hit dice regeneration during the day except for the standard long rest?

The basic idea is to have the CON be the ruling factor of the bonus one gets to the skills/damage rolls regardless of what other ability the character chooses to base it's actions on (Str, Dex, Int....)
The thing is, i can see this work (from a story PoV) for physical abilities (Str or Dex), even Int to some degree, but very difficult for Cha.

Thoughts?

EDIT: afterthought.... maybe the same mechanics can be used for the saving throws as well.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think that you might want to get a better idea of what the class does or is intended to do.

What do you mean by Constitution-based firstly? With the existing classes, its generally the most consistently-needed stat of any melee combatant. What function would this class fulfil that the standard high-Constitution Fighter doesn't for example?

Simply the ability to apply your Con bonus to all applicable rolls would need additional work. Currently all classes have a need for more than one ability. Being able to min/max by defaulting all Attack/damage and skill rolls to the same ability that determines your HP would be out of balance, not to mention trying to justify it in-game.

Hit Dice are not a good resource to burn because there aren't enough of them at low levels, and there are too many of them at high levels. You'll notice that the majority of resources that classes use start with several, and go up slowly if at all.

 

[Yunru]

Hit Dice are not a good resource to burn because there aren't enough of them at low levels, and there are too many of them at high levels. You'll notice that the majority of resources that classes use start with several, and go up slowly if at all.

Not to be pedantic, but:
* Sorcery points
* Ki points
* Barbarian Rages
etc.

 

[bedir than]

I would list the skills where this makes sense. How does Constitution and exertion help someone know Arcana, or Religion, or Insight? Limit the skill choices to those that make sense.

The mini-HD is an interesting technique, especially since they are both fuel and health.

Adding features around exploration mechanics (such as Exhaustion) could be help at higher levels. A resistance to disease and poison would seem to fit the concept as well.

Is there any narrative basis for the class? What heroes of literature or film fit this class concept more than they do Barbarian?

 

[Yunru]

Personally I just have them as Blood Sorcerers. I mean, there's no real logical was to use your endurance to be physically offensive that isn't already covered.

 

[ccs]

I think picking some stat to base the existence of a class around is a terrible way to make a class.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

I think that you might want to get a better idea of what the class does or is intended to do.

The first idea i had was for sort of a utility/general purpose support. Can fight, but not primary fighter, can "rogue" but not primary rogue and most of all, can last based on its own resources.

What do you mean by Constitution-based firstly? With the existing classes, its generally the most consistently-needed stat of any melee combatant. What function would this class fulfil that the standard high-Constitution Fighter doesn't for example?

Though needed and invested in if available, 5E doesn't really have a class that is "based" on constitution. Most attack and skill bonuses depend on other attributes. I.E. a fighter would need either Dex or Str to work as a class and Con would come in second. A mage would need Int and then Con second or third and so on..... No class need Con the most and then other abilities as second and third. Not as a concept and not from a mechanical PoV.

1.Simply the ability to apply your Con bonus to all applicable rolls would need additional work. Currently all classes have a need for more than one ability. Being able to min/max by defaulting all Attack/damage and skill rolls to the same ability that determines your HP would be out of balance, not to mention trying to justify it in-game.

2.Hit Dice are not a good resource to burn because there aren't enough of them at low levels, and there are too many of them at high levels. You'll notice that the majority of resources that classes use start with several, and go up slowly if at all.

1. Definitely. It's why i posted it here. But still, even though Con bonus would modify other skills and/or attacks, you still need some of those as secondaries. If going for a combat support, you will still need either Dex or Str in order to fight without over exerting too soon.
2. Again i agree. That is why i mentioned in the OP that the number of HD may need modification or adjustment. On of the ideas i have and that could be experimented is increase of die but lowering of number of dice. I.E. the class starts with 3d4 per level, then at lvl5 they turn to 2d6 per level, then at level 10 2d8 or so........ But what if, even with a constant 3d4 per level, at level 10, with 30 d4's....... we still find ourselves shot on resources? I mean..... unlike say, superiority dice, hit dice only regenerate on full rests, and even then only by 1/2 their spent number. There is still some merit there i think. Especially if we have to heal out selves too.

But at low levels? No such luxury...... at 1st level a 16Con PC would have 3d4+3 resources to put into either self healing or check augment per day. And only on the first day. Every day after getting those 3 back will not always be easy.

I would list the skills where this makes sense. How does Constitution and exertion help someone know Arcana, or Religion, or Insight? Limit the skill choices to those that make sense.

True, some skills just don't make sense at all. But i can see some "intellectual" skills work with this as well. Like a character focusing real hard, so hard that it strains them while performing some mental tasks like interacting with magical objects (arcana) or healing others (medicine). Maybe even on perception checks..... But completely out of place with others, even when Dex based (like stealth). I would certainly like to see a list of skills and possible explanations for them being used with exertion.

The mini-HD is an interesting technique, especially since they are both fuel and health.

It was my goal originally to make a whole game system based on it. Like casting classes using their own "inner" strength to fuel their spells, fighters to hack at their enemies or withstand damage, rogues to perform supernatural feats of acrobatics and dexterity. But why not start with a single class first, and see if the system can work?

Adding features around exploration mechanics (such as Exhaustion) could be help at higher levels. A resistance to disease and poison would seem to fit the concept as well.

And that is why i think though may not applicable to all skills, the mechanics may actually work for all saving throws. Resisting charms, physical hardships, mind invasions, concentration checks..... And yes, especially exploration. A ranger-like class with these mechanics in mind would be both thematic and mechanically viable.

Is there any narrative basis for the class? What heroes of literature or film fit this class concept more than they do Barbarian?

As a matter of fact yes. I was inspired by "hardy" folk, that even though not outright superior to other people in their basic capabilities (at least not in a way a 16Str PC is to a 9-11Str PC) could still "labor" either harder or longer based on their own inner strength (either will, conviction or bodily resilience). Direct inspiration: trappers and trackers, spiritual warriors (crusaders and such) but also some interpretation of magic users (like Gandalf in LotR) whose power seams to come from their own inner life force.

 

[Celebrim]

Whenever you design a class, you are starting at one of two points:

1) There is an important social or mythic role within the society of your campaign world that no existing class can accomplish.
2) In examining fiction of the genera your game belongs to, you can think of several famous characters - particularly characters that work as part of a team - which cannot be created using the existing class system.

I find that is a fairly tall order, and creating new meaningful classes is hard.

If you create a CON based class, and may I suggest they are called "Bricks", you are going to need to have a clear idea of what you are creating and why and what you are trying to emulate first before you start playing with the mechanics. And you are going to have to establish that they work very differently than obvious alternatives like Fighter, and why doing a fight subclass won't quite accomplish what you are going for.

After that, the class will just write itself.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Not to be pedantic, but:
* Sorcery points
* Ki points
* Barbarian Rages
etc.

Rages start with more than your level and advance slowly. The other two examples were the reason that I used the word "majority" rather than "all". I should have probably specified non-spell resources as well, since those tend to advance in a more linear fashion.

The first idea i had was for sort of a utility/general purpose support. Can fight, but not primary fighter, can "rogue" but not primary rogue and most of all, can last based on its own resources.

If you're burning HD to perform your class abilities, you're going to be much more of a healing sponge than a class with a separate resource mechanic. Particularly since it looks like they'll have a lot of hit points, but not very good defences.

Though needed and invested in if available, 5E doesn't really have a class that is "based" on constitution. Most attack and skill bonuses depend on other attributes. I.E. a fighter would need either Dex or Str to work as a class and Con would come in second. A mage would need Int and then Con second or third and so on..... No class need Con the most and then other abilities as second and third. Not as a concept and not from a mechanical PoV.

Aside from the dedicated spellcaster concepts, there aren't any classes "based" on a specific stat. A fighter uses Con, Str, Dex, a Rogue uses Int, Dex, Cha. a Ranger uses Str, Dex, Con, Wis. Monks use Wis, Dex, Str, Con. Any of those classes could happily choose to have any of those stats as its highest, depending upon the character concept.

You need to think through what you're after here. You don't base a class around a specific stat. You might have a class use a specific stat for a class ability, such as spellcasting, but a class that only has use for a single stat is generally a badly designed class.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

Rages start with more than your level and advance slowly. The other two examples were the reason that I used the word "majority" rather than "all". I should have probably specified non-spell resources as well, since those tend to advance in a more linear fashion.

Rages also remain in use until at least the end of the encounter. The bonuses used by "burning" HD are one time action specific. More similar to battle master maneuvers in that regard.

If you're burning HD to perform your class abilities, you're going to be much more of a healing sponge than a class with a separate resource mechanic. Particularly since it looks like they'll have a lot of hit points, but not very good defences.

Possibly. That is why granular HD per level might be a good idea. A larger number of smaller HD would benefit more from higher Con bonus, so the class is encouraged to put Con as a primary stat. While a lvl3 fighter with 14 Con gets 3d10+2 worth of healing 3x7=21HP on average, a lvl3 "Brick" would have a total 9d4+2 or 9x4=36HP on average. Even if 6 of those dice are used for healing, we still have 3 left for "tactical" use. Even more so, while raising Con to 16 would give the fighter just 1 extra HP per level, the "Brick" would get 3 times as many. And the more the bonus, the more HD would remain available for use other then healing.

Aside from the dedicated spellcaster concepts, there aren't any classes "based" on a specific stat. A fighter uses Con, Str, Dex, a Rogue uses Int, Dex, Cha. a Ranger uses Str, Dex, Con, Wis.

Although these classes benefit from having some other stats as well (as most classes do), they still (at least from a mechanical PoV) benefit most from one. For a fighter i.e. getting your "primary" of either Str or Dex higher, will always benefit you more (to hit and damage) then raising your Con first. A 20 in Str/Dex would help you hit harder and more often, while +3 Hp per level od 20 Con (if starting at 14) even at lvl 20 would give you only 60 extra HP. Yes the save is good, but then again, +3 isn't all that much when you are already proficient in Con.

You need to think through what you're after here. You don't base a class around a specific stat. You might have a class use a specific stat for a class ability, such as spellcasting, but a class that only has use for a single stat is generally a badly designed class.

I don't see how would the "Brick" benefit from one stat only. Even at lvl 10 with maybe 5-6 HD available for "burning" per day (if at full strength), considering the average adventure day of 6-9 encounters per long rest, we still have less then 1HD use per encounter. That means our PC will still need a solid investment in either Str or Dex to fight, and possibly a 3rd stat, for skill use (Int or Wis based, depending on which skills would he/she want to use on regular basis).

Whenever you design a class, you are starting at one of two points:

1) There is an important social or mythic role within the society of your campaign world that no existing class can accomplish.
2) In examining fiction of the genera your game belongs to, you can think of several famous characters - particularly characters that work as part of a team - which cannot be created using the existing class system.

The first one is easy. Self sufficient, hardy characters, that base their feats (as in acts, not the mechanical feat from PHB) on exceptional stamina/endurance/will power.
The second one....... i'm not so sure how would the "Brick" work as part of a team. One of the reasons (aside from level progression and resource management) why i posted here actually. I would like more experienced people's (especially with more genre and edition/general RPG savvy) opinions and critical analysis on the subject.

.

I find that is a fairly tall order, and creating new meaningful classes is hard.

If you create a CON based class, and may I suggest they are called "Bricks", you are going to need to have a clear idea of what you are creating and why and what you are trying to emulate first before you start playing with the mechanics. And you are going to have to establish that they work very differently than obvious alternatives like Fighter, and why doing a fight subclass won't quite accomplish what you are going for.

After that, the class will just write itself.

Hmm..... working as a subclass of a fighter might actually work. The reason behind the exertion mechanics (i think) is that i want a (as mentioned) a hardy class, but also a class that can do "great things" a limited times per day. And while doing those things, "spending" itself in the process. From that PoV, the HD could probably be seen as sort of a stamina system. That is why i originally thought of implementing the mechanics as new general game rule. But maybe it can be made to work in standard DnD as well? I mean..... right now, except for the expertise the Rogues get, there is no way to actually raise skill values. And aside from battle masters, there isn't a class that uses dice to fuel special actions. So, in a way, i guess i am combining rogues and battle masters?